1992 416-8 Speed/Starter Not Cranking

[boovuc 1,090]

All,

 

This is a continuing problem I'm having on this 416 and as another RedSquare member can attest, he had the same issues when I bought it from him years ago.

All the safety switches are bypassed. Battery is fully charged. All the connections and terminals are clean and in good shape! The starter switch was changed out, the solenoid was changed out. A different starter from my spare Onan was put in. All grounds were checked out. I even added some new grounds.

When I go to start it, I here a relay click but I have no starter crank! If I continue to move the switch between on and start, on and start, on and start, it will eventually start to crank and fire up. (Each cycle of the key switch will click the relay under the battery).

Let me reaffirm, it is NOT a safety switch! (TT will also confirm this)!

 

I noticed that this 416 has (1) relay under the battery yet there are two relay sockets! One socket has a 5 pin connector and the other is a four pin connector. The 5 pin socket is occupied by a Hella 4RD-960-388-46 SPST relay. The four pin socket is empty! I looked at the schematic of the 1992 416-8 and it has what appears to be a 5 pin "Seat Relay" and there is what appears to be a 4 pin "Starter Relay" on the schematic. Again......I have nothing in this 4 pin socket. It is gone!

 

What is the part number/cross reference part number for this relay? How can I even start this machine without this relay? Does your 416-H or 8 have two relays? Is this a root cause of my issues? Why is the sky blue? Whoops! Got carried away there again!

 

Also...........the thirty amp automotive fuse in the fuse block is getting very hot and is melting a little! I want to isolate just the thirty amp fuse from the fuse block. What do I need to do special if anything to accomplish this?

I can always start this tractor by repeated cycles of the key switch but I really need to find an answer to this issue! Sometimes, it will fire right up on the first key switch turn!

 

I'm all ears and eyes for your suggestions and a part number on this relay if needed!

 

Thanks in Advance As Always!

[dennist 139]

I fought and fought a similar issue bypassed all switches and if I moved the ignition switch back and forth a bunch it would finally fire up changed ignition switch did all other that I could think and finally pulled out these wires that rubbed against the steering shaft on the backside where I could not see them. No more issues for me...hope you find yours soon, as I have very little hair left after this one.

[boovuc 1,090]

Anyone? Really need someone to look under the battery box of their Onan powered 416-8 Speed and tell me if they have one or two relays there. If you have two, please post the numbers of both relays and in particular, the 4 pin relay. (The other is a 5 pin relay).

 

Also, I know I read where it "may" not be just as simple as snipping the wires off under the fuse block to an indivudual fuse to install a seperate fuse holder for that circuit.

Let me know and Thanks!

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,029]

Don't cut any wires. Just clean the insulation off the red wire feeding the fuse panel and wrap the new wire on the inline fuse holder tight to the red wire + solder the connection and insulate. You don't want to cut the red wire because it is still feeding the 25 amp fuse in the block.

The other end of the new inline fuse goes to the white wire that comes from the voltage regulator on the engine. You don't want to cut it either because it also feeds the start relay. Just clean the insulation off and get a good tight wrap + solder and tape.

 

Here is the detailed wiring diagrams in case you don't have them.

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/2108-tractor-1992-1997-416-8-416-h-wiring-detailed-492-4509pdf/

 

Don't leave the old 30 amp fuse in place because that would fuse the circuit for 60 amps with the new one.

 

Garry

 

Adding

The start relay has 4 wires in the diagram.

The seat relay has 5 wires in the diagram

They are both part number 116397 and one terminal is not used on the start relay.

[Martin 2,131]

went out and looked at both my 1995 416 tractors. both have a 4 and 5 pin, both have relays and all switches operational except the seat switch harness is jumped together at the switch. like you said the 4 pin (or more correctly the relay socket with only 4 terminals wired) is for the start circuit and the 5 is the seat switch. Also, just to clarify the starter relay is on the belt drive side of the tractor and the seat relay is on the other. IF your wiring at the relays HASNT ever been messed with, you wouldn't be able to energize the starter without a relay and you said the 4 terminal socket doesn't have a relay. so that tells me you need to investigate your harness more if you want it 'correctly wired'. as far as the relays go the 5th terminal doesn't really matter in the 'start' relay socket so just run a 5 pin relay in it. the 5th terminal is terminal 87a and isn't always used in a relay application. 

 

sounds to me like the seat relay socket and wiring is being used as the start circuit. or the start relay socket wiring has been bypassed somehow. If there is no relay in the socket you don't have a connection there. You have wires going in and wires going out but none of them are connected if the relay is missing and everything is how it should be.

 

both of mine have 5 pin relays in the sockets and are Hella 4RD 960 388-07. 

 

As far as the fuse wires go, you can do it the way Garry mentioned or just replace the fuse block with new. If it was me i would pull the harness and make sure everything is as it should be and replace the fuse block and maybe the relay sockets if needed. But thats just me.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Martin

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,029]

Relay # 116397 schematic

Since the relays are the same try swapping them.

It won't let me add the pic. The 523 page Demystification Guide has a test proceedure for the relay.

Page 3-16

Garry

[Martin 2,131]

Garry, thats the toro number i come up with as well. I looked at every IPL i have on the 416 tractors (90s) and all of them only show one relay (seat) and a solenoid for the starter  (300 series) or no solenoid at all and just the one relay. theres not enough detail......

I know different as i have two of them with two relays and no solenoid. just can't find an IPL with the correct setup. i figure both relays are the same though, really no need to be different.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Martin

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,029]

I finally found 2 relays shown for the 1997 model 73422. It shows up on 2 pages but the "Hoodstand Electrical Housing and Wire Harness" page actually shows the two being the same.

Garry

[Martin 2,131]

heres a 96 one with the 2 of them. "front plate/relays" page 17.

 

 

i notice this is the only one that has (2) called out for 116397. every other IPL i looked at only has (1)

 

do you have a link to the one you mention (1997 73422) couldn't find it in the manuals section.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Martin

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,029]

Try to add a file again

 

Garry

 

1997 416-8 relays.pdf

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,029]

Here is the 116397 relay schematic

 

Garry

Relay 116397.pdf

[boovuc 1,090]

This is what I wanted to hear about! Between myself and TT, I would believe this tractor has been acting this way for the better part of 6 or 7 years. The fuse holder for the 30 amp fuse is toast. (I'm not kidding! It really looks like toast)! 

It isn't holding the fuse tight anymore and it heats it up. It may be other things as well since it is the starter circuit and it has some "issues"!

 

Martin! Thank you so much for going out to your machines and looking for me! The relay, a single pole/single throw is a Hella 960-388-46. That also converts to a Bosch 0332-209-150 or 0332-204-150.

No how in the hell can this machine start without that relay in the socket?

Granted that it really is a pain to start but I do believe I will pull the one out of the seat relay and try it in the starter relay and see what happens. Perhaps I'll wear some protective clothing and keep a CO2 extinguisher handy! 

 

There are some crazy electrical things going on with this tractor. It's been present in it for a long long time. I know it was kept under a lean-too at a soccer field outside of Julian, PA for quite some time in it's younger days. It runs like a top with the exception of trying to start it!

Too late to try anything tonight. And with some rain coming, it's time to dip some minnows in my favorite stream in the coming days. I'll have time right after work tomorrow and let you guys know.

Dennist..........I did check the wires and harness around the column, on top of the engine, through the dash and then forward to the starter. They look all OK to me. Maybe a scuff or two. I even isolated the harness from the frame and tried to start it with the same results.

 

Garry, Martin and Dennist! Thanks for helping me out. We'll see what the outcome is!

[Martin 2,131]

the relay 116397 pdf that Garry posted is from the demystification manual. i recommend anybody who wants to learn more about any of the electrical components of our later model tractors to download this. the glossary section is especially good at teaching the operation and diagnosis of individual electrical parts.......

 

 

[boovuc 1,090]

OK..........................I swapped out the one relay i had in the tractor. Moved it from the 5 pin 'seat relay" socket to the 4 pin "Starter Socket". The outcome?

 

It does the same thing! The relay clicks but i get no starter cranking. I gave it three tries and it fired right up. I shut the motor down and repeated. Same results.

I obviously don't need the "starter relay" or the "seat relay" with the safety switches bypassed. Or do I need BOTH relays in placed?

I didn't try to start it with no relay in yet! (Too wet, windy and cold working in the shed). And you must remove the battery to get to the fuses and the relays!

 

So it isn't the starter nor the solenoid. It isn't the key switch and it isn't a safety switch. It isn't the battery or the battery terminals. I have a good ground.

Now as Dennist pointed out, he had issues with an exposed wire but I checked mine and as far as I could see, i have nothing exposed. This leaves the fuse block and my hot 30 amp fuse holder to question. Is it the holder? Is it getting hot because of the issue or is the issue the fuse block itself or do I need both relays? (Sounds like an announcer doing a setup for the next day's soap opera)!

 

I think I'm going to get two new relays and plug them in and then isolate the 30 amp fuse holder off of the block with a single fuse holder and see what happens. Fairly cheap experiment and I'm running out of ideas!

Your input and guidance is always welcome! Please chime in!

[Martin 2,131]

i think the fuse block is probably the majority of your problems if getting power through is your issue. temporarily fix it like you said but its really worth spending the time to replace the fuse block.

something still isn't right with the whole relay/ relay socket deal as well, i would inspect the whole harness in that area thoroughly. the thing shouldn't start without a relay!

 

i redid my fuse block on the 416-8 I'm rebuilding, its not difficult if you remove the whole harness, which sounds like a lot of work but its a simple harness to snake out of the hood stand. you already have the safety switches disconnected. i have some pics and info in my 416 adventures thread if you are interested.....

 

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Hot fuse block gotta go Boo

[boovuc 1,090]

Oh I know, SOI! 

I replaced the fuse that was in it that had somewhat melted and now the new fuse is beginning to do the same!

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

if you can, do a voltage drop test across the fuse holder (not the fuse itself)

 

you will most likely see a few volts dropped which will explain why the relays and starter solenoid buzz / click

 

boyh are being starved of the proper operating voltage - the power they need to operate is being consumed by the fuse holder and is being converted to heat instead of electromechanical action

[boovuc 1,090]

I ordered another fuse block for it but I'm still doing the single holder for the starter circuit fuse just to see if it's the whole block or just that circuit. NAPA will have both my new Bosch relays tomorrow. Now I need some time and some sunshine! On the other hand, I did nail another nice Brown Trout of 18+ inches tonight! Rain has it's advantages too! 

I know I have some high amps and low voltage across that fuse block. I'll get it ironed out. Thanks SOI and the rest of you guys. As always, RS has the experts on call 24/7. I'm here for comedic therapy!

[doc724 925]

OK, I admit I did not study in detail all the previous dialog so take this with a grain of salt.  In my 30 years of engineering I have learned that electrical things don't start due to one of three things, a missing part, a bad part, a high resistance connection.  The evidence I read about the 30 amp fuse getting hot/melted and the fuse block being toast leads me to believe that the female terminals inside the fuse block have corrosion on them (blocking the flow of current) or are sufficiently corroded so that they are restricting the flow of current.  Either way, this condition will either lead to one of two things (an open circuit) or a thermal run away (aka a fire).   I would go for replacement of the fuse block and all fuses in it.

[boovuc 1,090]

Well we are going to do battle with the wiring on this 416 today. Have a few things to get and must get to the store first. One thing I am going to try first, (just for s#@ts and giggles), is remove all the relays and see if it starts. I would almost bet it will try.

Should be interesting to see what the bottom of that fuse block looks like!

[Joefrommi65 18]

I had a similar issue with my for 416-8 and I also was melting fuses, I found the terminal going into the bottom fuse block was not stay connected to the fuse block and would drop down loosing a good contact with the blade for the fuse, I pulled it apart and replaced the terminal. Not sure if this helps just thought I would throw it out there. I do know a bad connection will create a lot of heat . 

[boovuc 1,090]

Well I opted not to replace the OEM Fuse Block with another block due to space constraints. I replaced all three fuses with individual fuse holders with caps to keep the clippings out of them. The 30 and 20 amp fuse holders are bridged per the schematic. The 15 amp light circuit is not fed from the other two. The wiring wasn't messed with under there at all. The original owner did replace two wires in the lower harness connection that were broken off but that is it. The old fuse block wasn't burnt or melted. Just the contacts that held the 30 amp fuse. (They were burnt/corroded and would not hold the fuse tight at all). I also replaced the relay and bought another so I actually had two relays per the schematic. (NAPA Replacement Parts).

I went over all the wiring I could see under and around the steering column and steering fan also. No concerns. 

With that, we fired it up. It had a hiccup or two but seems to be firing right away now although in my opinion, I feel there is some hesitation from the initial turn of the key until the starter engages.

Since I used fuse holders, I have access to the fuses without having to remove the battery. I'll keep an eye on the 30 and 20 amp fuses for awhile looking for any heating/melting of the fuse body. I may replace the key switch though I know TT did have a new one in there.

I re-hooked the safety switches to the parking brake indicator and the clutch pedal. The rest were already bypassed due to broken switches. Idiot lights all work as they did before the fix so I didn't mess something else up fixing another issue as sometimes happens when jerking 22 year old wire harnesses around.

Now time will tell if this got it or it falls back to where it was. Several times I thought I had this fixed only to have it not fire again. Thanks for all the comments and fixes for this!

[boovuc 1,090]

Not so Fast!

I tried it this morning and it fired right up. No hesitation what so ever! But................................I didn't try the headlights.......................................until this morning!

I flipped the switch and my charge gauge died and I had no lights. The tractor continued to run and I could shut it off and fire it right back up with no problem.

 

I got in the truck and drove it off a cliff!

 

No! I drove to camp to check on things and then came back home and turned the key. To my surprise, the charge gauge came alive and it fired right up. I flipped the headlight switch and again, no lights and my gauge went dead.

At this point, I checked with a VOM to see if I was actually still charging the battery. I was. 14VDC at the battery with it running. About 12.9 VDC without it running. Mmmmmmmmm.

 

So..........................took the battery off again seeing that I didn't blow the 15 amp fuse for the light circuit and I pulled the Starter relay. (Going back near the beginning of this fix, I have two relay sockets and only had 1 relay installed and that was for the seat switch.

Now....with the starter relay pulled, I hooked the battery back up and..............................everything works! Took the battery out, installed the starter relay again and hooked the battery back up and as soon as I turn on the lights, I lose my gauge and I have no lights.

 

So........................everything works as it should with no starter relay installed. I don't see anything that would or should effect the gauge/light circuit in this way but the facts don't lie. So I run this thing without the start relay as it was run for many years prior and not look back.

Now if you guys have a theory on this phenomena then please do share.

 

Thanks Again for the Help! 

[Martin 2,131]

thats great you got it sorted (sort of!)

 

if you are happy with it like it is then fine. i wouldn't be, but thats just me. i would want to know whats changed from the oem setup to give you the symptoms it has. the starter relay was put there from new for a reason. i realize that you are fine with it and its your tractor so it doesn't matter what i think. 

 

as far as a theory, you would need to pull the whole harness and compare with a oem unchanged one to work out what is different.......

 

if you ever do that i would be interested to see how it looks.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Martin