Suburban 400 Find in Florida

[Racinbob 11,034]

I already found the shifter fork. In fact two of them with the rails. I was talking to a mechanic biddy and he said he could probably build up the broken one and reshape it. It's not the entire end but it's almost like it was ground thinner about 1/3 of the way back from the tip but it looks more like it broke to me. I'm not a welder but I don't think I'd want to use this particular part repaired it that manner. Toro still has the forks. It looks like all the transmissions through 2007 used the same part #. But they want over $60 for one fork. I found the two with the rails for $24.99 shipped. They look good in the picture. Now it's more waiting time.

[stevasaurus 22,698]

Bob, you are having way too much fun.  The forks are the same...do you have another fork?  It sounds like you found the problem.  Those small roll pins go back in esy...it is getting them out that is rough. 

[Racinbob 11,034]

They actually came out quite easily Steve. It seems odd to me but the shift forks have several areas on the 'body' of them that look like a grinder hit them. I can't figure out what cause it. The replacements arrived today. They are supposed to be out of a 5053 transmission that was on a 1056. No grinding marks and they look good. Here's a shot of the replacement beside the rail I took out. Notice the center detent. It's clearly deeper.

 

I also sent an email to a small engine shop called Landscape Supply that showed up on here before I logged in. Hopefully they will be able to help me out with the original K91 crankshaft. I need to get the journal turned down .010 without paying the price for a V8 crankshaft.

[stevasaurus 22,698]

The larger indentation on the one shaft is for when that shaft is in a neutral position.  Difference in transmissions???  I'm sure you know this, but for the sake of this thread...when you are ready to pin the fork...you want to make sure the the grooved faces on the rail face each other and the forks line up over the input shaft.  Bob, when you get this together...check out the 2 shafts again to see if they are level...maybe a shim is in order.  A nice way to look at it...the pinion on the top of the one shaft and the reduction gear on top of the other shaft should line up dang near perfectly when everything is in the right place.  Does that make since??    You do not want to pinch those shafts in the 3 piece tranny. 

 

I am curious also about...even though they have the same part numbers...one came out of a 3 piece tranny , and the other came out of the 2 sided kind.  The 3 piece used ball bearings to maybe account for a little slop in the casting and side plates.  The 2 piece casting tranny...I think...is much tighter tolerance and used needle bearings.  If you do have an issue after you get it together...you may want to use the rails that came out of your trans and just change the fork...this may be why the grooves are a little different.  You will have to put it together to find out...having fun yet Bob?? 

 

Talk when you want.

Edited May 31, 2014 by stevasaurus

[Racinbob 11,034]

I do understand Steve but I certainly don't mind being reminded. I'm going to pull the right cover off again. It will make it easier to get the stop balls and spring in plus I just want to recheck a couple things that are bugging me. Unfortunately, I'm sure I'll ruin the gasket (Permatex) so I'll pick up a 12"x18" sheet of gasket material and that's perfect for 3 gaskets. Once I'm ready to put it together again I'll dry fit it with the gaskets first. I'm thinking there is a problem with pinching with the cluster shaft and possibly the differential. I'll check the play on the input shaft again. I'm thinking use both the later model rails and see how it works. Sound like a plan?

 

Actually Steve, in spite of some frustration I am having fun. Most of the frustration in self imposed. I'm amazed I still have 10 toes considering how often I shoot myself in the foot. I've reread threads here and watched your videos many times. It's been and will continue to be a great learning process and a lot of fun. By the way Steve, are you set as 'invisible' on Skype? When we were chatting a while back you showed as offline then even though I knew better. I've been on a few afternoons and never see you as online.

[stevasaurus 22,698]

Sounds good Bob. 

 

Yes, I am set as invisible on skype...just do not mess with that football unless I have something setup.  As a rule, If you see me logged in on Red Square, I will see if someone wants to talk...just send a message or try to call.    Any time Bob...

[stevasaurus 22,698]

Bob, I measured the distance between the side plates on the #5010 Transmission I have on the bench.  It is like a perfect 6". 

[Racinbob 11,034]

Thanks Steve! That will help. I haven't done the thing with the threaded rod yet. The reason being is that I couldn't get the shifter forks in the mix doing that. I did get the arbor shims this morning and experimented with the shifting issue. That problem is solved . It's going through all the gears perfectly and I'm getting the maximum engagement on the input shaft gear. I decided to go ahead and clean up the ends of the differential housing. It came out as smooth as a baby's butt. Just for giggles I put things back together with the 1/16" gasket on the right and the 1/32" on the left. Bound up again. I pulled the gasket from the left cover and reinstalled it with washers  as spacers. It turned but was still too tight. I've got to get on another project this afternoon and tomorrow is spoken for but my next step is to assemble it with the rod spaced at the 6000 thousandths . At least it looks like I'm down to just one issue now.

[stevasaurus 22,698]

I also took a look at the input shaft on the trans I have here.  There is no in and out slack at all in the shaft. 

 

That's great...1 issue down and 1 to go. 

[Racinbob 11,034]

Time constraints said I shouldn't have but I just had to know. I spent a bit more time on it putting the left cover on with 1/16" gaskets on both sides. The inside measurement between the sides is.......6 1/8" . I loosen the cover and it frees up everything. A straight edge shows me the differential is a fuzz below the side of the case without a gasket. The brake shaft has just a touch of play so it's free. I'd have to say again, the rod thing is definitely the way to go now. Gotta see what's going on. As soon as I can get back on it I'll definitely post pics.

 

Oh yea, my wife came home last night and told me she has some vacation time locked in from Sept. 27 through Oct. 12. What a coincidence, that sandwiches the first weekend in Oct.  . Indiana here we come!

[km3h 543]

If you are going to Indiana, make sure you have lots of room for the return trip home. Seems there are more Wheel Horse tractors and parts there than most anywhere else in the country. 

[jdleach 525]

Why would you want to come to Indiana? You like corn and hogs? 

 

And yup, there are certainly a lot of Wheel Horses up here, but the prices seem to be going up. When I bought the 312-8 in April, when my heighbors and friends saw it, they all made the comment, "You know they are collecting them things now?" 

 

Word is getting around.

[Racinbob 11,034]

Unfortunately I won't have much room. The wifes little car cranks along at close to 40 mpg. I's going to try to talk her into taking my truck but I'm betting I lose. I definitely have a list of smaller goodies I need for this restoration.

 

Yea, I like corn and hogs . We lived just outside of South bend for 45 years and have family there. We can foresee moving back not too far in the future. Florida has Indiana beat in the winter but not in the summer. On a pro/con list Indiana beats Florida hands down. I hear you on the prices but at least folks know what a Wheel Horse is. Down here if you happen to find somebody that knows you can bet they moved here and aren't native.

[Racinbob 11,034]

Not much time this weekend to play with this. I assembled the transmission with threaded rod like Steve did in his video. Prior to disassembling the thing to do this I measured between the side plates. 6 1/8" dead on. It was still binding when I snugged up the side plate bolts but freed up just by loosening them. One thought was that a bolt could be hitting something but nope, there's plenty of clearance. So I put it together like this. My first 'setting' was 6 1/16" between the plates, just a bit tighter than they would be on the case. I was thinking this would compensate in case there was any gasket compression when I torqued them down tight. The thing is spinning just fine. This should eliminate any possibility of something getting pinched when it's all assembled. I don't see any marks where it could be hitting the case. I'm thinking I should try again with the differential removed. If it spins fine then do it again with just the differential installed. I've already tried this once and it indicated the differential was the problem but my work always needs to be double checked . if I just slightly relieve the sideplate bolts just so it turns but still rubs just maybe it will leave a mark to give me divine guidance. I doubt that I'll have time to mess with it more today but I'd like to hear if anybody has any suggestions on what to look for.

[AMC RULES 37,125]

Man, I do love that gearbox internals pict...   

could you install your pulley, a belt, and put it in motion for us to watch?

Seems it would be almost as interesting as Steve's paint drying video.   

[stevasaurus 22,698]

Craig's right...that is a great picture.  I do not see anything wrong...the differential carriage appears to have plenty of room to turn freely.  If the cluster gear shaft and the spline shaft are turning freely...it almost has to be the bearing under the large part of the mushroom gear that is binding up on the bottom of the gear.  I have had issues with that spot before.  Was there a thin shim under that bearing when you tore the trans apart??  Could that bearing be a little cock-eyed in the seat ring??  Maybe try just the mushroom gear and the differential...or just the mushroom gear in your set up.  Make sure that bearing is just flush with the seat ring on the outside edge.  The center of the bearing is a smidge higher so the mushroom gear shaft sits inside, but the bottom of the gear rides on the bearing.  Almost has to be where the problem is Bob. 

 

Nice job on the transmission...it looks terrific. 

Edited June 8, 2014 by stevasaurus

[Racinbob 11,034]

That's the bearing where the welded ring on the case side was out of round. I 'fixed' it but that's not saying I got it right. Yes, it's got a shim under it and I ended up putting the shim back in after I made the oval round. I'll check it out again. Prior to putting it together with the rod I tried all the gears less the differential in the case and it was fine. Then I took all the gears out and tried the differential only and that's when it bound up again. Tomorrow I'll check out that bearing again and try all the combinations of parts installed in the case. Sooner or later the issue has got to expose itself...............doesn't it? . Ya know, a hundred years from now I'll be laughing about this problem.

[stevasaurus 22,698]

Bob, I have had problems with that bearing pinching before...it was the first thing I thought of when we started talking about the pinching.  Is it possible that the differential bull gear is making it tight when the side plates are tightened??  Check the bearing at the top of the mushroom gear also for the correct seating...almost has to be where you are having the problem.    Maybe try it without the shim.  Is it possible that the axle tubes are not square to the plates??  Take a good look at the welds.

Edited June 8, 2014 by stevasaurus

[Racinbob 11,034]

That sounds like a good place to start Steve. You're the man! I've got some play in the brake shaft but I wouldn't think excessive at all. But, after checking out what you've suggested I might try a thin shim on mushroom gear end to make sure the gear isn't riding on the welded ring. I'm not positive if the inner ring is a fuzz outside of the welded ring or not but I need the bearing seated to the shim between it and the case because of the issue with the ring. That shim rides on the outer ring of the bearing only so there's no moving. I think I just confused me.

[stevasaurus 22,698]

Nope...your thinking is correct. 

[Racinbob 11,034]

It would be a great time to Skype Steve but the kids are on there way over to watch the rest of the race and have a cook out. I'll be on this tomorrow and post an update. Oh oh! Tony Stewart is having trouble with his transmission popping out of 4th. I've got more shims. Maybe he needs one?

[Racinbob 11,034]

It was definitely a   morning. I have narrowed down the problem. It's definitely the differential binding. There's four areas supporting the diff/axle assembly. The two axle bushings and the two differential bushings. The issue is in the differential bushings. There's plenty of clearance so the case isn't pinching anything. The diff/axle assembly slips into each case side individually just fine and spins easily. But when both sides are tightened down it's as if there's a slight misalignment and it binds up. Slightly loosening the bolts frees it. There's not much play in the side cover with the bolts loose but it's enough. Unless someone has a better idea I think the only fix is to hone out the differential bushing a bit more and a little more polishing on the 'tubes' it slips over on the case sides. After disassembling and reassembling the thing four zillion times this morning I decided to walk away for today. I can only assume that it didn't have the problem before because all four bushings were very worn. 

[stevasaurus 22,698]

OK...so now i have someone else that can put one of these transmissions together in their sleep.    I think you are on to something...with honing out those bushings on the carrier a little more...and/or smoothing down what they ride on.  I think you are going to want to do this a little at a time...if it is getting better...then you know you are in the ball park.  I wish I was down there with you doing this...I'll fill up the cooler.  Quite honestly, I think you are close. 

[Racinbob 11,034]

In my sleep? Today that would have been called a nightmare. I did start getting frustrated cuz things just weren't making sense. Then I discovered the problem with the rod holding the diff in the side plates. I do need that shim on the brakeshaft at the mushroom gear end. It's rubbing just a fuzz but wasn't causing the issue. The diff was the only thing I had in place. I got the axles and pinions back out but I need new stones for my hone. I'll get those tomorrow. I had already smoothed the pipe thingys the bushing ride on but I did some more this morning, I did gain a little bit so I agree that it's headed in the right direction. I'm going to use 1/32" gaskets instead of the 1/16" so the fit to the frame will be better. There's still going to be plenty of room for the shims on the input and brake shafts. You would have had to refill that cooler several times today

[Racinbob 11,034]

I’m getting a rare sense of confidence that I have the issue resolved. I tried to check for axle housing squareness but it’s just not off enough to be certain. I honed out all four bronze bushings a little bit more and just made sure everything was polished smooth. I reassembled the differential and installed just it in the case with NO gaskets. It’s turning!! The axles are completely free and the differential seems to be rubbing just a fuzz but still turning pretty good. With no gaskets it likely is the differential housing being pinched a bit but it’s slight. The gaskets will probably resolve the rub but, worse case, I’ll need to get a little more clearance on the carrier bushings. With the assembly process used 54 years ago I believe that the tolerances needed when new parts are installed has to be a little more than today’s processes would require. I’m at a standstill right now until Mr. postman gets here today.