D-180 lacks drive power

[jdmitchjr@6dlam.com 5]

I just bought a D-180 which the seller represented as a 1977 but it might be a bit older -- I have not checked the numbers yet. 

 

The day I bought it, it drive onto my landscaping trailer just fine.

 

This is my first wheel horse.

 

Engine runs fine and I know about running it at full throttle.

 

I took it off the trailer and drove it around a bit.  I went to drive back onto the trailer but it would not go up the ramp.  The trailer is about 18" tall and the ramp is about 5' long.  So it is steep but not too steep. 

 

I am new to hydro transmissions, so I do not know where to start to troubleshoot. 

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks very much.

[.5racer 14]

make sure the bypass valve is shut , left side I believe. Might have vibrated loose . fluid level for hydro under seat 10w30 . plugged filter for hydro  ,, how well do the lifts  lift  ,, great or sluggish

also see if coupler on motor isn't slipping

[daveoman1966 3,762]

If the suggestions that member '5racer' pass the test, then it is probably the Sundstrand hydro unit is worn requiring rebuild of the hydro pump and (separate) hydro motor assembly.   

I am sending you a pm with further details.

my email is:  daveoman@windstream.net

 

[jeremi3210 735]

sounds like a weak hydro. they are not that hard to rebuild as long as they are not to worn. if you do try to rebuild it do both the pump and the motor cause whatever took out the pump also went thru the motor. 

[KC9KAS 4,741]

 , and

[Hodge71 664]

Ive rebuilt quite a few hydro units for the D series and they are pretty straightforward once you get into it. Heres a link to the documented process Paul Frederi and myself used when we did our first together… Take your time, watch your tolerances and all will be fine…. Hit Kelly up on here. He is a vendor and sells quality stuff. After I failed miserably on ebay and bought junk, he bailed me out more than once. he's a quality guy and pretty well beats the pants off everyone out there as far as knowledge based and quality parts. If he can't help you, Joe's Outdoor Power should be able to.... He's a member on here and usually cuts us a break on pricing and free shipping 

 

 

 

Hers the link to the thread

Edited February 23, 2014 by hodge71

[jdmitchjr@6dlam.com 5]

Thanks very much for all the very prompt and detailed replies.  Much appreciated.

 

It appears that photos are in demand, so two taken by the prior owner are posted. 

 

I will be following the recommended troubleshooting steps next weekend. 

 

The loader operated fine, good speed and capacity.  There is a hydraulic leak on one of the hoses or reservoir connection and a slight leak from the transaxle.  So fluid level is a good suspect. 

 

I looked through the manual postings, but the designations are a bit of a mystery for a newbie.  Is there a basic manual for the D-180?

 

And again, apologies from a newbie, but where is the tractor id plate located?

 

Thanks very much.

 

 

[can whlvr 993]

was the tractor up at all or was it dead cold when you tried,try warming it up first,then if not after its warm you got bigger problems

[pfrederi 17,893]

The loader uses a completely separate hydro system.  My d200 bucket worked great the drive system was shot.  I will never again buy a hydro that I do not work for awhile first...and if i ever find that guy in Connecticut I bought it from i will....

 

As Hodge indicates your sundstrand hydro is probably weak. They are repairable (hodge and i did one).  mine works quite well now.  The hydro manual for sundstrands is here in the manuals section.  You will need to tear her down.  The most difficult part is getting the hubs off the axle. I have a puller if you get stuck....

 

There are couple of checks you can try.  First get her warmed up and then put her against an immovable object...will she spin her rear wheels trying to push it??? Checking the charge pump pressure is the first real test.  PM me I can loan you the needed pressure gages.  Hodge is correct about buying replacements.  i have bought several pumps and motors from "good working' tractors.  Most all were cra+p. 

 

Sorry to seem negative.. they are fixable with time and effort. Several of us here have been though it and are ready to help.

[wheeledhorseman 574]

The tractor ID plate (if it's still in place) is mounted on the panel below the dash and above the parking brake control.

 

You appear to have a 'dysfunctional D' but there are a number of us who have had to face that challenge and come through it seems you've just joined the family.   There's a lot of expertise on the forum so don't lose heart.

 

Andy

[jdmitchjr@6dlam.com 5]

Again thanks for the replies and support. 

 

I found the bypass valve but I have not tried it yet.

 

I checked the transmission fluid level and it was mid in the dipstick cross hatch range.  It was a clear fluid, so not motor oil.  If the wrong fluid is used, could that explain the lack of drive power?  Short of a rebuild, is a drain, flush and refill with the correct fluid a possible fix?

 

Thanks for being kind on my duh moment not realizing that the loader hydraulics were separate from the transmission hydraulics.  The loader hydraulic leak is from a screw about half to two thirds up the back side of the reservoir frame.  Not sure why there is a screw there....  Should be an easy fix.   By they way, the loader is an Ark loader. 

 

The transaxle leak is fairly minor so I don't think a leak is the issue (but it will have to be dealt with).

 

I had run the tractor for about fifteen minutes before trying to drive it back up the trailer, so it was warm but not super warm.

 

I found the tractor plate but it was painted over with the not right red color.  I will pull the plate and see if I can reveal the numbers.  Are the numbers stamped or etched or screened on?

 

Some paperwork that came with the tractor has the model number handwritten in as 1-0611.

 

Rebuilding the transmission will be a challenge but not impossible for me.  I am a bit concerned about finding parts for ruined parts....  Thanks for the link to the photos.

 

Thanks for the very kind offers of tools.  I should be okay on pullers.  For the pressure test, as long as I can find the right connector and where to connect it, I should be okay.

 

The other issue added to the list is sloppy steering.  It appears to be a problem between the steering wheel shaft and the next part in the system.  I have seen some postings on this issue and they were not encouraging....

 

Let me know if I am overdoing these postings.

 

 

[baerpath 517]

"Thanks for being kind on my duh moment not realizing that the loader hydraulics were separate from the transmission hydraulics. The loader hydraulic leak is from a screw about half to two thirds up the back side of the reservoir frame. Not sure why there is a screw there.... Should be an easy fix. By they way, the loader is an Ark loader."

 

The screw is the full mark of the oil for the loader. Usually they have a small rubber washer on it to seal it.
 

[JamesBe1 82]

Welcome to Red Square.  You came to the right place.  There are several here who have already replied that have had a great deal of experience with the hydro systems.  They are most likely correct in that your hydro pump and/or motor are weak.

 

I highly recommend changing the filter before you go tearing the pump out.  It's not as easy as it seems the first time.

 

Feel free to ask any questions no matter how dumb they sound.  We've all asked them here at one time or another (me more than most).

 

BTW, I might have missed it, but what kind of sound is it making when you try to move it?

 

James

[brandonozz 168]

Welcome Red Square and as Andy said the "dysfunctional D Family". The pullers used to get the hubs off are not the standard pulley puller type as the hubs can crack. Although you might get frustrated and tempted, don't hammer on the hubs as they can break or cause internal damage to parts inside the tranny. So a search on hub removal and you will get some ideas of pullers guys are using. I made mine out of 1/2" plate and it worked great..... but it wasn't easy getting one of them off. At least it wasn't both!

The sloppy steering is likely the Ross gear box but those can be rebuilt as well. Do a search here and elsewhere as those steering boxes were used on other garden tractors as well. Check the bolts that hold the axle pin to the frame. My bolts were really loose and tightening the bolts took about half the play out of the steering. It's a process to get everything back in working order but the more it comes together the more you will love it!

[pfrederi 17,893]

Older models may still be using Dexron (Type A) Auto Trans fluid.  Should be cherry red.  Later they started using 10w-30 motor oil tan.  don't mix them

 

  You need to download the Sundstrand repair manual from the manuals section it show how to pressure test and overhaul the system

 

 

Pulling the hubs can be the worse part of the job.  As pointed out do not use a regular jaw puller on the hub flange...the flange will most likely break if the hub is stuck on.  Here is what i used. That is not an optical illusion I bent the square tubes pulling one of the hubs.

Edited February 24, 2014 by pfrederi

[jdmitchjr@6dlam.com 5]

Thanks again for all the information and advice.  Especially concerning pulling off the hubs. 

 

After searching the posts on the steering issue, if tightening the bolts holding the ross box to the frame is not the fix, then my guess is that the bearings in the bottom of the gear encasement are shot.  If I pull that out, I want to be ready for the rebuild, so does anyone know the model number of the Ross steering box used on the D-180s?  And a source for the rebuild kits (one posting showed the kit but did not indicate the model number or the supplier...)? 

 

The bypass valve was too tight to turn, so it is being soaked with liquid wrench.  If the slot is any indication, it is at about 45 degrees, not horizontal and not vertical.  So maybe that is it or part of the problem. 

 

I found the Sunstrand service manual in the manual postings and studied the rebuild links, explanations, and images.  It looks like a fair number of parts and relationships to keep straight but not too difficult.  I did a manual transmission for a Willy's Jeep without a manual and with it delivered in pieces, so this should be in my range.

 

I also found where to plug in for the pressure test and found the specs in the Sunstrand manual. 

 

So my order of troubleshooting plan for next weekend is bypass valve, filter change, and pressure test. 

 

I am still trying to figure out what fluid was used.  It is clear and odorless.  Very low viscosity.  Not as slick feeling as hydraulic fluid.  If I had to guess, mineral oil might be a good guess.  Has anyone, short of a rebuild, done a drain, flush, and ultimate refill with the proper motor oil?

 

Many thanks again to all who have contributed. 

 

Best regards,

 

John

[Hodge71 664]

I chose transmission fluid because thats what was in mine from the factory in 1973. I did a complete flush before I rebuilt mine hoping that I was going to get lucky and replacing the filter with a hydro filter instead of a Fram oil filter would fix it. I was wrong. I didn't need to drain it as I bought it with an empty tranny. Not a drop on the dipstick PO said they blew a line. Once I saw the inside of my pump and motor after the fill and filter didn't work, I saw they ran it out of oil at some point and burned everything up. I would say for you drain that mineral oil or hydro fluid out of there. They have contaminated the whole thing and its a good chance its a huge part of the issue. After you drain it completely I would fill it with cheap 10-30 oil, if there is such thing these days, put the proper hydro filter on and run it for about 5 minutes. Then drain it again and refill with new oil and change the filter again. They're only about 8 bucks at a Toro dealer. If you dont  want to  use OEM, I would use Napa #1410. Its made by Wix for Napa and I would say it meets or probably exceeds OEM in every way. They are an awesome filter and my go to… 

Edited February 25, 2014 by hodge71

[pfrederi 17,893]

Thanks again for all the information and advice.  Especially concerning pulling off the hubs. 

 

After searching the posts on the steering issue, if tightening the bolts holding the ross box to the frame is not the fix, then my guess is that the bearings in the bottom of the gear encasement are shot.  If I pull that out, I want to be ready for the rebuild, so does anyone know the model number of the Ross steering box used on the D-180s?  And a source for the rebuild kits (one posting showed the kit but did not indicate the model number or the supplier...)? 

 

The bypass valve was too tight to turn, so it is being soaked with liquid wrench.  If the slot is any indication, it is at about 45 degrees, not horizontal and not vertical.  So maybe that is it or part of the problem. 

 

I found the Sunstrand service manual in the manual postings and studied the rebuild links, explanations, and images.  It looks like a fair number of parts and relationships to keep straight but not too difficult.  I did a manual transmission for a Willy's Jeep without a manual and with it delivered in pieces, so this should be in my range.

 

I also found where to plug in for the pressure test and found the specs in the Sunstrand manual. 

 

So my order of troubleshooting plan for next weekend is bypass valve, filter change, and pressure test. 

 

I am still trying to figure out what fluid was used.  It is clear and odorless.  Very low viscosity.  Not as slick feeling as hydraulic fluid.  If I had to guess, mineral oil might be a good guess.  Has anyone, short of a rebuild, done a drain, flush, and ultimate refill with the proper motor oil?

 

Many thanks again to all who have contributed. 

 

Best regards,

 

John

I am wondering if someone used Tractor Hydraulic fluid. (Some times called TCH or HYTRAN)  Widely used in farm tractors and covered the hydraulic system and gears in the rear end.  in any event drain it and I would guess that you should refill with 10w-30 motor oil...I THINK that that may be closer than ATF.  I would be hesitant to read too much into the position of your bypass valve.  When you can turn it it will be more useful info.

[brandonozz 168]

John,

Sorry if I was a little confusing about the bolts being loose on the steering. The loose bolts I was dealing with were on the front axle itself, actually the pin that holds the axle. There is a pin that the axle pivots on right in the middle that has two bolts - one front and one back on the pin.

The ross gearbox is usually the problem. Here is a link to some good information.

You can also take the cotter pin out the bottom of the ross housing and tighten the nut/plug a bit and usually take some of the slop out of the steering as well.

[pacer 3,174]

Re the Ross steering, the little repair kit - 2 bearings and their seats - is available from 2-3 sources for less than $20, I used a Cub Cadet kit on mine - I cant seem to find the sources right now. There is some one on ebay that offers virtually the same thing for something like $125. Do a search here on the forum using "Ross steering" and there are several posts and somewhere in one of them was the source.

 

Maybe this is a fix for after snow season?? :)

[jdmitchjr@6dlam.com 5]

Luckily I have a Craftsman 12 year old GT5000 with a snow thrower on it.  The D-180 and the Ark loader are for landscaping work -- mulch, wood chips, turning the clipping pile, top soil, gravel, etc. in Spring, Summer and Fall.

 

The D-180 has displaced my truck in the garage because my plan was to put the D-180 on the trailer and tent it with a tarp until the snow melts enough (down to about 18") in the yard to allow the D-180 its designed space in the barn shed but because of the lack of power issue, I cannot get the D-180 back on the trailer.    So taking some time crawling under the tractor now is not too bad....

 

brandonozz and pacer, thanks for the further information on the Ross steering issue.  I found the post with the rebuild and kit photo so I have that part number tucked away.  I plan to go through the steering from the front axle to the steering wheel nut to see what is worn out and what can be adjusted to make it tighter.  I saw some postings for a power steering kit retrofit.  A bit pricey but it looked interesting.  Anyone try it out?

 

pfrederi I agree that the slot orientation on the bypass valve is an unlikely indicator of valve position, but I took note of it just in case.  And given that it was frozen, it is probably not a recent change to explain the power differential one day to the next.  Your guess on the fluid might be right on. 

 

hodge71on the fluid change, I might even go two rounds with oil if I don't tear it all the way down.  I will probably mix some of the present fluid with the oil in a small container and stir it up with a drill at moderate speed to see what the interaction is like.  If it foams like crazy, then a tear down is further indicated. 

 

I spent some time staring at the tractor today and identifying parts while my septic system was pumped out.  I noticed a few things to ask about. 

 

The air cleaner cover only leaves a small gap between its bottom lip and the bottom plate.  Seems a bit restrictive.  Has anyone experimented with opening it up a bit?

 

The purpose of the tractor is to be a loader, so the part of the hydraulic system for implements is not going to be used.  It seems to me that I could disconnect the hoses for it, plug the connecting holes, leave the mounted bits in place in case someone wants to do a more faithful restoration in the future, and limit failure points in the overall system.  Make sense? 

 

Thanks again to everyone.  The support and helpfulness is fantastic.  I thought I was going to be much more on my own. 

 

Best regards,

 

John

[pfrederi 17,893]

From what I can see in the pictures all you do not have a 3 point.  Thus only the mid mount lift.  I really do not see a huge benefit to going to the trouble to disconnect it. Also look a fig 61 in the manual.  The charge valve and implement valve set up is different if there is no lift.  I would need to think about that for a bit. 

 

One thing you need to consider is you will need a major counter weight for your loader.  I have ag tires filled with beet juice and two large cement blocks (holes filled with concrete) on an extension off the rear of the loader frame, and I could use a bit more.

[jdmitchjr@6dlam.com 5]

pfrederi --

 

Correct, only mid mount lift no three point.  Just thinking about ways to simplify and eliminate failure points. 

 

Absolutely on the weight needed for the loader.  The tractor came with the rear weight box -- it is off for transport as with it on, the bucket has to be on the trailer front rail rather than on the deck with it off.   The weight box mount is very substantial

 

Beet juice in the tires?  I have heard of other stuff used to fill tires but I have never heard of beet juice.  I would guess it does not freeze, but to a suburban guy in the Northeast, it sounds odd.... 

 

Thanks.

 

Best regards,

 

John

[jdmitchjr@6dlam.com 5]

I had a few minutes so I pulled the identification plate off the tractor and gently scraped the paint over.

 

The model number is 1-0612 which makes it a 1975.  I looked it up on the Wheel Horse Tractor Master Model List which I found online.  I did not find that document on the Red Square site, so please let me know if I should post it and where. 

 

And in case it matters for any of the advice I received on the drive unit, it is Sunstrand 90-1137.

 

Given that the 1-0612 is the last model year for the D-180, my guess is that the transmission should have been filled with motor oil rather than any other fluid as some comments have indicated that earlier models used something other than motor oil. 

 

Best regards,

 

John

Sundstrand not Sunstrand....

[Hodge71 664]

John,

 

All models after 1973 were filled with 10-30 from the factory. My 18 Automatic was filled with Transmission fluid because it was an early 1973 model. My Dads 1973 12 automatic was filled with 10w30 from the factory. And as far as beet juice…its called Rimguard and is pretty darn expensive. Its the best thing there is if you NEED to fill the tires. It doesn't eat the metal like calcium…Ask me how i know..lol... I myself are more apt to use wheel weights and suitcase weights if needed. SOme guys on here are fans of Rv antifreeze or windshield washer fluid. Im not a fan of anything lekng out of my rims if I get a leak…no matter how safe others say it is