Dumb transmission questions (sorry)

[Uncle Buck 246]

I have four WH tractors each of which has the three speed plus reverse transmission. I keep reading about eight speed transmissions. Is there a clear benefit to the eight speed transmissions over the three speed transmissions I am used to? Is the eight speed stouter? I suspect without a lot of work a three speed could be swapped out for an eight speed.

 

So is a swap an option, and if it is an option is it worth the effort to do that?

[daveoman1966 3,745]

Lots of guys swap out to the 8-speed trans and it isn't difficult.  The frame-to-bolt pattern is the same, generally.  There MAY be some easily resolved issues with the brake band and linkage though.  Once again, easily overcome.  Benefits are: you'll get a VERY SLOW creeper gear in 1st gear LO.  Tillers work best at this slow travel rate.  At the other end of the spectrum, 3rd gear HI will be much faster than your current 3rd gear. 

[Uncle Buck 246]

I don't really till and in actuality I always thought the three speed served me well. That said I figured the 8 speed might be stouter. Any benefits when plowing snow or mowing? or I suppose towing stuff??

 

Also, would this be a costly swap?? I mean is an 8 speed costly to buy??

 

Thank you for the quick reply, UB

Edited February 1, 2014 by Uncle Buck

[Martin 2,131]

  At the other end of the spectrum, 3rd gear HI will be much faster than your current 3rd gear. 

 

can't say i agree with this statement. if all external things remain the same, the gearing between the non hi/lo boxes and hi/lo boxes in the hi selection is the same. am i wrong here transmission guys?

Edited February 1, 2014 by Martin

[Racinbob 11,034]

As daveoman1966 said, the lower gearing is much better for tilling. For the majority of applications the high range is used. It's only been a very few times I've used the lower range mowing and never on a yard but just in a field where the growth is hood height. I always wondered why they call it an 8 speed. For a while, years ago, the tractors with the hi/lo were called 6 speeds. Ever hear of a transmission in a car called a (x) speed and that included the reverse    You probably could latch on to a 8 (?) speed for a reasonable price especially if you can find one locally. Obviously that would be the most expensive part of the swap.

[Martin 2,131]

I don't really till and in actuality I always thought the three speed served me well. That said I figured the 8 speed might be stouter. Any benefits when plowing snow or mowing? or I suppose towing stuff??

 

Also, would this be a costly swap?? I mean is an 8 speed costly to buy??

 

Thank you for the quick reply, UB

 

the hi/lo boxes are nice, but if you have no need for the lower gearing then the 3 speed you have is ideal. as far as stouter goes, most of that difference comes in to play with the differential part of the trans, 4, 8 pinion etc. or the earlier bevel gear pinion. there is a bunch of discussion on that subject as well........

[sorekiwi 761]

Hi 3rd is the same ratio as 3rd in a 4 speed.  All the extra ratio's are in the low range, slower than 1st in a 4 speed.

 

I have very seldom used the low gears in any of my 8 speeds.  Tilling and using a sickle mower are the only tasks I can think of where the low speeds are necessary.

 

As Martin just said, the strength factor is mainly in the axles/differential package.  Both 4 and 8 speeds come with either 1" or 1 1/8" axles.  The 8 pinion diff is generally considered the strongest, followed by the 4 pinion, 10 pinion and the bevel gear diff which is considered the weakest.

 

I have heard that there were some 8 pinion diffs produced with 1" axles, but I have never seen one.  My opinion is that a 4 pinion diff is plenty strong enough for all the normal tasks.  As far as I know, all 10 pinion and bevel gear diffs came with 1 1/8" axles.

 

So my thought is that unless you are tilling or using a sickle mower, there is no real need to change to an 8 speed.

[rmaynard 15,417]

can't say i agree with this statement. if all external things remain the same, the gearing between the non hi/lo boxes and hi/lo boxes in the hi selection is the same. am i wrong here transmission guys?

My 857 with a 3-speed is rated at 6 mph in 3rd gear in the owners manual. My B-100 8-speed is stated to be 5.4 mph in high range 3rd gear.

[rmaynard 15,417]

I like driving my 857 3-speed because it is 6/10ths of a mph faster.

[sorekiwi 761]

My 857 with a 3-speed is rated at 6 mph in 3rd gear in the owners manual. My B-100 8-speed is stated to be 5.4 mph in high range 3rd gear.

 

There may be a difference in the input gearing due to the pulley sizes, I've never done the math.

 

Internal gearing is the same.

 

A little early in the morning for me, but I'm thinking that .6 mph is 10%?!!

[Racinbob 11,034]

Am I correct in saying the 10 pinion had a limited slip differential?

My Dad had a Raider 12 (70-72??) and was told it did by the dealer. At the time I assumed it was even better than the 8 pinion but learned in this forum that it was in fact weaker. Even so, we mowed, plowed, pushed snow, tilled and basically worked that machine so hard a lesser tractor would have been trashed. 30 years later, after my Dad passed, my nephew sold the Raider   It still ran great and never needed anything but the routine maintenance done.

 

[Racinbob 11,034]

Just answered my own question. The 10 pinion was limited slip. Maybe I should learn to look before I post?

[stevasaurus 22,698]

The 3 speed...4 speed...6 speed and 8 speed transmissions all have the same gear ratios...that is...the high range of the 6 and 8 speed transmissions are the same as the 3 and 4 speed.  1st gear is 66.8  2nd gear is 42.4  3rd gear is 24.6 and reverse is 51.5 in all of the wheel horse transmissions.  The low range ratios are the same in the 6 as well as the 8 speed transmissions.  low 1st gear is 267.2  low 2nd gear is 169.6 low 3rd gear is 98.4 and low reverse is 206.0.  If one tractor is faster then the other, it is because of engine or input pulley sizes, or the size of the tires could change the speed, or your engine RPMs.  The internal gear ratios are all the same. 

Advantages...

If you are in low 1st gear, you have time to unmount the horse, go into the house for a cold beverage and come back and get on the horse and the horse only went  10 feet.     One other application for using a low range gear might be using a snow blower.

Edited February 1, 2014 by stevasaurus

[leeave96 487]

I like the 8 speed and it's hi/low. Low range is handy for trimming while mowing in very tight places, when I use to have ramps for truck loading, I use low range. I generally moldboard plow in 3rd gear low and low range is handy when creeping the tractor around in the basement. I've used low range for pulling woven wire tight on a garden fence installation and it's handy when blowing deep snow.

One of my disappointments with my IH Cub Cadet is that low range was an option, standard I guess on 10 plus hp Wheelhorse tractors - another Wheelhorse advantage.

[Uncle Buck 246]

Thank you guys for all the useful input. It sounds like for what I do there would not be enough benefit for it to make any real difference to me. I think I will just stick with what I have.

[stevasaurus 22,698]

Uncle Buck...there are no stupid questions....  When you get that 5th horse...get one with the hi/lo range.  You can not have too many horses.

[oaktown1987 82]

I believe the 857 has a smaller trans pulley

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ri702bill 8,279]

I built a special purpose tractor this fall just for plowing - a 1964 854 with the 8 speed from a 1979 C81.

As Oaktown said, the input pulley needs to be changed -  the 854 had a 3/4" bore and the C81 pulley is too large to fit under the 854 belt guard and has a 5/8" bore. Bought a cast iron one the same OD as the 854 with the 5/8" bore. The belt length worked out to 69 inches, not 70 as the 854 was.

Used a brake rod from a Raider as the brake pulls opposite (over the top, not bottom) to the 3 speed & it fits under the 854 guard. Did not use a parking brake lever.

Had to use a hole saw to allow the dipstick tube and Hi-Lo rod to clear. Had to shorten both the tube & dipstick a few inches , as the 854 has the fixed seat, not the pivoting style on the C series.

Used the original transission shift lever from the 854 & had to bend, shorten, and re-thread the Hi-Lo lever on the 8 speed to better clear the keyswitch.

 

Sorry, no pictures.