Indicator lights/ circuit board options?

[Graeme 7]

I have read the thread started by Save Old Iron in the FAQ section detailing the repair of a circuit board on a 416-8, now my question is, does anyone offer this as a service?  My 1987 416-8 needs all the bulbs replaced, at the very least, not sure if there is a corrosion issue. I would imagine there must be some, seems like a popular issue. If no one offers this as a service, is there a popular replacement? I tried looking it up on Jacks Small Engines for my tractor and it looks like the originals are all gone. Thanks

Graeme

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

I am an electrical engineer and would be more than happy to provide my services reasonably.

 

However, I don't have a 312-8 to inspect first. I wouldn't be able to tell you what I could do for it unless I saw one first hand,

 

Anyone around Cincy willing to donate let me borrow a 312-8 with this circuit board he's referring to? I have repaired many things from HVAC power boards to automotive boards to industrial EDM supplies.

 

I would like to see if we can replace the lamps with LED's. They would be much more robust in this application.

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

I went through SOI's FAQ. It looks pretty straight forward even if I dont have an example installed in front of me.

 

If you are interested and can live without your board for a couple weeks, PM me and we can get the details worked out.

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Indeed there has been an increasing number of members asking about repair services for the indicator board. I started to design / construct a test jig for repair of the indicator boards a few months ago.

 

 

Currently my free time is at a premium and I do not have the resources to dedicate to providing a "repair service" for indicator pcbs.

 

If anyone wishes to continue on with the repair jig, I will happily donate the fixture to the cause.

 

The indicator board repair is really quite simple and all repair parts are easily obtained. The issue that had stalled my investigation was the time needed to research how many different styles of pcb's exist in the wild and if they are wired differently for various series / models of tractors.

 

Resistors and capacitors could be easily checked with a multimeter. Prophylactic replacement of all active components such as IC's or transistors would cost less than $10. No guessing or expensive test equipment needed..

 

Bottom line,

 

it's a low dollar, easy fix, just takes a bunch of time. Unfortunately my time is at a premium right now.

 

Chuck

Edited January 15, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[Graeme 7]

@Chuck- I Imagine someone out there could turn a profit and offer a great service from doing this, perhaps bmsgaffer?

@bmsgaffer- I'll pm you later!

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

@Chuck- I Imagine someone out there could turn a profit and offer a great service from doing this, perhaps bmsgaffer?

@bmsgaffer- I'll pm you later!

 

It is possible.

 

Another consideration would be dealing with situations where folks THINK they have a pcb issue but really have issues with disconnected or damaged safety wiring in the tractor harness. They receive your reworked pcb, insert it into the corroded connector and are disappointed when the new $60 pcb does not work correctly.

 

Good customer service dictates you either take the pcb back and exchange it or spend time (possibly hours) helping them define a wiring harness issue. Folks on this site know I'm the patron saint of totally messed up electrical issues, harnesses and even the custom advice with wiring in accessories. Experience has shown me problems which should take minutes to diagnose in a "hands on" situation can take hours and days to diagnose via the phone. Considerable time will be taken  instructing your customer thru multiple issues which are ancillary to your recycled pcb.

 

As a post retirement "hobby", it may make sense.

Profit from the endeavor?

Maybe.

 

Parts costs would be minimal. Profit would depend upon what you feel your time is worth.

 

If you wanted to move forward on the idea, take a poll on what the average enthusiast would pay for a recycled pcb. Factor in about $5 for parts, $10 more for the LED upgrade with new bezels. Add about 2 - 3 hours labor (remember you have to package the pcb in an anti static bag $2, box and address the package $2, and drive to the post office on your dime). See if the sell price minus the total dollar invested yields a worthwhile profit. Maybe even contact Joe's Outdoor Parts to pay a bounty on defective or non working indicator boards. Have some repaired spares on hand to be able to send out immediately to your your customer base.

 

Did I mention you will be on the phone or forum frequently helping folks to troubleshoot beyond just the install of the circuit board as there will always be hidden issues.

 

I did find a source for the 44 pin connectors the pcb's plug into. The good folks overseas can supply connectors at $2 each. Judge if your average customer is able to dress and solder the 20+ wires from the original connector to the new connector without introducing any further issues you will be obligated to help with. 

 

Did I mention you will be on the phone or forum frequently helping folks to troubleshoot beyond just the install of the circuit board.

 

One last thought. The ability to manufacture a bare pcb has become a readily accessible and inexpensive option to the average home hobbyist. With the low cost of pcb manufacturing and the low cost of components, I would be surprised if replacement circuit boards could not be made for less than a $30 price point. A little time spent with the free version of EAGLE CAD and a Skype call to "Pcb's R us" could get you off to a running start.

 

Unfortunately, my work and travel is more intense now than it has been in the many years. What I envision as a yearly profit on re-manufacturing pcbs, I could make with a few hours of overtime this week.

 

Let me know if I can be of any further help.

 

Chuck

Edited January 15, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Remember too, 

 

with sub $5 knock off OneHungLo copies of the Arduino Mini

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271251071444?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

 

and a 16 x 4 lcd display, you have this replacement for an indicator panel. 

 

All safety switches monitored, lift position, tachometer, volt and amp meters on one display 

 

Edited January 15, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[Graeme 7]

@ Chuck, clearly you are well versed in this department. My aim, at this point is just to get my indicator lights working. How do I know that the problem ends there? Well, I don't, but, I do know that some of the bulbs are missing, and if I understand correctly the aren't just plug and play, they require some sensitive soldering skills, which at this point I don't have. I do know that a couple switches have been disabled, but they are on their way to being back on line.  I have the basics for electrical circuit trouble shooting but beyond that, I am not an electrical whiz, you could say. I can see where repairing circuit boards could be a very time consuming and thankless job just from the other post you did about the topic. I do appreciate your knowledge and input. I am however interested in this LCD display, but again, my electrical skills allow only so much as a plug and play type thing.

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

Remember too, 

 

with sub $5 knock off OneHungLo copies of the Arduino Mini

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271251071444?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

 

and a 16 x 4 lcd display, you have this replacement for an indicator panel. 

 

All safety switches monitored, lift position, tachometer, volt and amp meters on one display 

 

 

I am building one of these for my C-165 makeover. I will be using PIC instead of arduino, but I plan on implementing: safety switches, RPM (engine and pto with warning if they differ by too much), Battery voltage and current, Tractor tilt (with warning if tilt is approaching tipover), temp, and if i get really ambitious I will be implementing hydraulic pressure, fuel level, and oil level. (these years have no sensor).

 

Its a ways off since I also have a full time job, but still on the list.

 

If i did anything with the indicator boards long term it would be to create a replacement that required you to cut off the card-edge connector and wire in something more appropriate to account for any corrosion issues there.

 

I also do not have the time to help customers rewire their entire tractors.

[Graeme 7]

I would think the only one with time to help a customer re wire the tractor is the local repair shop who charges an hourly rate!

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

I would think the only one with time to help a customer re wire the tractor is the local repair shop who charges an hourly rate!

 

True! Gotta have time to work on my own tractors!

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

I'll be interested in folowing your progress on this, especially on the circuitry you wil use for power rail isolation of the RF noise produced by the ignition system, handling temperature extremes, severe vibration in single cyclinder applications, and liquid exclusion from the pcb.

 

and folks think these things are just "slapped together" and bolted to the tractor.

 

 

p.s

the MPH readout is off neo magnets placed on an aluminum disk secured to the trans axle.  Two hall effect sensors can be used to sense speed and direction of the tracctor. I'm also contimplating monitoring PTO "ON" time with MPH to display how long it has taken you to mow the lawn, dump engine run time into memory to allow for maintenance cycles to be displayed, etc, etc,

 

I am also looking into measuring oil conductivity as I read where engine oil conductivity changes near the end of life. Cyclinder head temp and EGT are also on the board.

 

Servo control of choke function and a "fly by wire" throttle are also easy to implement. Want keyless ignition? Wear an RFI fob in your pants pocket and you can remove the mechanical key switch and put a START ENGINE button in its place, automatically choked to prevailing ambient temperatures. 

 

Insertion of a BOOST CONVERTER into the power line to the ignition coil to "get you home" if your charge system fails and starves your ignition system with low battery voltage. BOOST mode will dim your headlights (if on) warn the operator and kick in the ignition power line boost from 8 - 9 volts back up to 12 volts to allow you to return home safely with little battery reserve left.

 

Don't stop dreaming guys.

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

Yes, the fly-by-wire choke and throttle were on the to-do's.  I plan on making pressure washer and generator attachments for the PTO and I want the tractor to be able to idle up and down based on load. I am trying not to custom make every part so I am looking for some reliable servos to use in such a harsh (RF interference nightmare) environment. It looks like there are lots of servo-mods out there, so it will take some research.

 

I plan on having the 'brains' in a small weatherproof aluminum box for RF shielding and plenty of optically isolated inputs and filtered power sources. All cables would enter through watertight cord grips. The majority of connections would be on a separate, cheaper "interface board" that could be replaced if corrosion got to it too bad.

 

I like the oil conductivity measurement, I will have to look into that.

 

Does the band brake on these tractors run at the same speed as the input shaft or the output shaft? I would be easy to throw some magnets on that and read them, but I think its input shaft so you would have to know what gear you are in too.

 

Could possibly do magnets on the front wheels too.

 

I would be worried about the boost converter sucking so much life out of a low battery you might just kill it. What about a warning when the engine is running and voltage is not > 13 v?

 

I want to implement warnings for tip over, PTO slip, hydro pressure, safety switches if necessary.

[Graeme 7]

Wow guys, I was just going to be happy to have working indicator lights! You really take it to the next level.

[wheeledhorseman 574]

Graeme

 

I have a 316-8 which was in a really rough state when I got it where it had stood out in the rain for years resulting in some of the panels having rotted through. To my surprise the indicator board still worked and continued to work for about a year before going completely dead. Usually with these one or two channels / lites may give up, sometimes a lamp but more often wiring or a switch is the culpret. I've had that on another tractor but on this one the board was apparently now completely dead.

 

I noticed that the hoursmeter had also stopped and traced the fault to a corroded push on connector on the back of the ignition switch. I was actually expecting to find that the board had become very corroded given the state of the rest of the tractor but in fact it was perfect.

 

You'll have gathered from the posts that took off that the problem with these is that the fault can lie elsewhere so even a known good board may not solve the problem in some cases. It's nice to have them working correctly but in reality I rarely look at mine just get on start up and ride. They are useful in that if the solenoid and starter don't do anything when you turn the key a light stays on saying that the pto clutch is engaged for example but when you find that it is disengaged then that fault lies in the pto switch or wiring. I suppose in theory the oil pressure light is the most important but if it did come on during seat time I doubt that I'd notice for some time.

 

Good luck - the wiring on a 416 is a bit different to a 416 but do check the connectors on the back of the ignition switch.

 

Andy

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Wow guys, I was just going to be happy to have working indicator lights!

 

Yes, but I don't think we can do something that difficult

 

Seriously,

 

take a picture of the front and the back sides of the circuit board along with a third pic of the wiring at the pc connector.

 

We may be able to point you in the right direction toward reapairing the problem yourself. Depending on the symptoms, you may just have corrosion on the pcb that requires repair or you may need to replace a few electrical components on the board.

[Graeme 7]

@Andy- I just like the idea of knowing the bulbs work properly, noticing them is another thing entirely! ; )

@SOI- I'll see if I can get into things and snap a couple pics tonight. I have a test switch on order, man, they don't give those away! But I need it, it's shorted and pops the fuse if you accidently bump it, which I have done too many times already. I've never done work with a circuit board, I do have a soldering iron, but does any old soldering iron work, or does it need to be something in particular for this task?

[wrightorchid 261]

I too would like a working board, with working lights, LED or otherwise.  I do like the lcd display with lots of good info.  Once I chase the other electrical issues down, and rebuild the tranny, it's next on the list.

[Graeme 7]

Ok, Here is a pic. SOI, I took the board out and it seems pretty clean. I am reluctant to remove the protective rubbery stuff on the back of the board, I pulled on it a bit and it is wrapped right around all the resistors and stuff on the back of the board. I'm afraid if I pull too much the resistors may stop resisting. At this point I would like to maybe start by replacing the bulbs, are they a simple two prong style bulb that just plugs in? As you can see two are missing. 

[JERSEYHAWG / Glenn 4,497]

Gents, one of those bulbs, like ones missing in the rubber boot on that circuit board picture above.  what bulb works and does it come with the boot? Or do you push the new bulb in and bend the legs to the side. I  need to find a bulb myself. Thanks.

 

Glenn

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Or do you push the new bulb in and bend the legs to the side

 

Glenn

The new bulb can be inserted into the old rubber housing (legs of the bulb bent as follows)

 

 

12 volt "Grain O' Wheat" bulbs can be used. Radio shack may carry the bulbs or possibly any hobby or train store in the area.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHIPS-FROM-USA-10-pcs-4-7mm-clear-12Vdc-grain-of-wheat-mini-lamps-bulbs-12-v-dc-/230851469825

Edited January 31, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

When you remove the rubber holders, check on the circuit board under the holders for corrosion / erosion of the copper traces

 

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

wet grass clippings captured under rubber holders turned to acid and ate away copper traces on the indicator board

 

Edited January 31, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[redidbull 54]

I sometimes fix ECMs for Suzuki Samurais. It does require time and it is really helpful to have something to test the repair with. Most of the boards are straight forward but some are not. I offered to have them sent back or refund if they didn't work. There is a little money in it but not much. I don't know anything about the tractor boards but they look like the same era as the Suzuki ones that have leaky capacitors that cause board damage and old type solders. Jim