wheel horse/ toro

[darg 7]

The wheel horses of 85-0n, where they made by toro at the wheel horse factory. or the toro . plant? Is the quality if being made by toro , is  the same quality as the org pond horses? They are not listed in the pond book after 84,just wondering about the quality. Also why was the 418 made for only 1 year. It seams to be like the 416.

 

darg

[RMCIII 838]

Well, I can only speak for the Toro/ Wheel Horse xi I own. Extremely Heavy Duty tractor. The only element they left out was an optional rear diff. loc. Other than that, it is a pure beast that is also nimble and user friendly if you need to work on it.

Now, if you are talking attachments, well, that is a whole separate topic... To those of us who have them, an attachment in new - to nearly new condition is a very rare find. Great little garden tractor though.

[boovuc 1,090]

After 1985,when WH was bought by Toro, they would have kept operations in the Wheelhorse plant since that is where all the tooling and employees trained in their manufacture were at. I don't know if the 300, 400 and 500's were made there until their demise but it takes a great deal of time and money to shut a plant down and move a product line to another location. The South Bend plant ran well past 1986.

The quality of the Wheelhorse "Garden Tractor Line" was the same if not better after Toro became the parent company to Wheelhorse.

I think a majority of members here would agree that we owe Toro a debt of thanks for keeping the 300, 400 and 500 series, (what Toro later called the "Classic"), going for all the years that they did. Toro added their lines to the lawn mower and commercial series and of course added the Xi series which was a really nice heavy garden tractor in it's own right. If Toro would have pulled the plug on the "Classic" line, we wouldn't see near the implement availability we see today and parts would have been scarce long before this present day.

In regard to why some tractors only had a one or two year run, it all boils down to sales verses profits. I don't know for certain what the cost difference was between a 416 and 418 Kohler powered tractor but if 2 horsepower in a twin cylinder cost many hundreds of dollars extra, it most likely didn't sell as well as the single cylinder 416. Parts availability from engine suppliers would also play a large part in a continuation of a tractor model. We buy, sell and trade our tractors in used conditions. Toro needed to sell new tractors and I can tell you right now that when I bought my first home, I couldn't have afforded a Wheelhorse new. My car and truck were worth as much as a new 416 in 1986.

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,166]

My 1994 416 is extremely well built, many of the parts are identical to the C-160.

[darg 7]

I thank you yall for the good information on WH/ toro. All are great well built tractors. I have a 418A /12 hp mag & a C160/ 12 HP that I would not trade for any other make. Also have a sears custom 10 bought in 71. all org. retired it.

THANKS AGAIN

 

darg

[RJR49 129]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think Wheel Horse had several owners between Mr Pond and Toro. I think American Motors was one

[Racinbob 10,858]

I think my 2005 Classic GT is, for the most part, every bit as good as the many older models I've owned. The biggest difference I see is the cheaper steering column support behind the dash. Of course the engine isn't the great K-series on mine but it will be if this Command decides to puke.

[boovuc 1,090]

RJR49,

 

You are correct. There were other owners including AMC.

Darg was talking about Toro so I only referenced Toro buying Wheelhorse when they did in the mid-80's.

[leeave96 487]

IMHO - the quality was equal.  As much as we like to bash Toro, they did keep these tractors going much longer than I think anyone would have thought.  My biggest gripe with Toro was they should have kept the Wheelhorse name with Toro in small or no lettering at all and leveraged the Wheelhorse legacy.  Toro has some outstanding manuals, etc. online for free download and still supports to a large degree these tractors in parts.

 

As to why one tractor would only be available for one year - I think many times it was a "run" to use-up parts or take advantage of a "deal" on engines, etc., from a manufacturer.  Good news is - for the C series and 3/4/500 series, is it really doesn't matter if the tractor was made for a year, 6 months or 6 years.  Everything is so interchangeable that you are not really locked out of anything you need for the tractor.

 

Good luck,

Bill

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,166]

I think that it was a good move to put the Toro name on the product.  While Wheel Horse is well known with us, it is NOT well known with the average home owner, but Toro is!  When Toro purchased Wheel Horse, they needed to boost the marketability of the tractor and branding it is the best way.  I think that they should be applauded that the name Wheel Horse continued to be placed on it as they very easily could have removed it all together and kept it as a Toro product. 

 

Wheel Horse as a product was not growing so they needed to change it.  I've asked this same question a bunch of times and the answer is quite astounding, but there are not many of us (the serious collectors) who have purchased a new Wheel Horse.  Even in 2007 when they were shutting down production, you would have though that there would have been a run to buy them, but nope!  It's not because of the quality, because even if you feel that Toro degraded them (which I do not believe in the least) they were still leaps and bounds above the competition.  It's simply because of price and that Wheel Horse isn't as well known as John Deere, or Cub Cadet.

 

I understand the sentimental value of the name, but in practical business they needed to change it and I think that removing the name was FAR better than producing a cheap unit with the Wheel Horse name.

[Racinbob 10,858]

Very well said Karl. Having been born and growing up in the South Bend area and on Wheel Horses since 1960 it was a bit of a sore spot for me to see Toro take over. The early 'Toros' had the Wheel Horse name in blending colors and a little hard to see. The Toro logo was where the eye went. Later versions improved that. I purchased three new Wheel Horses, a 98, a 84 GT100 and a 76 B-80 which was later received a K341 (a B-160 ) and had numerous older machines. When the herd was sold to move here I bought a 2005 Classic. At first I was definitely going to get replacement decals to eliminate the Toro logo but after reading several posts here about the positives of what Toro did I'm thinking I'll leave it as is. For years I was caught up in Toros promise not to change the name or move out of South Bend. Well, in reality they didn't change the name but just added their well known branding. the move? Well, I don't know. Big corporations move mainly for financial reasons so I'm sure they were justified. Even just a couple weeks ago when I was up there I still drive by Lock Joint Tube and wish it still said Wheel Horse instead. But the bright side is that it's still a beautiful facility.

[WheelHorse79 271]

Were the later model vertical shaft tractors Wheel Horse designed and produced, or were they another Toro product with a Wheel Horse badge?

[wh500special 2,118]

I've never understood the hang up some of us have with Toro.  They kept a name and brand alive with a quality product way beyond the shelf life...I suspect a lot of that longitivity is a result of believing in the product and being a privately held company.  Even the not very adored vertical shaft tractors and riders were good for their designed purposes and were - at the minimum - class competitive.

 

About the only criticism I could remotely offer is that their marketing of the product didn't really seem to catch on.  But being the "everything grass" company, they certainly recognized the direction the market was headed and put the energy and resources were they needed it.

 

The 5xi was all Toro.  But what a machine it was.  Overall, a much superior design to the classic tractors in every functional way.  And VERY, VERY heavy duty.  They made a lot of them, but they seem scarce in comparison to the ancient design tractors we all love so much.  I would venture to guess that since they are so robust and were quite expensive (but competive) we just haven't seen huge numbers of them hit the used market yet.

 

The classic tractor was expensive to build.  Lots of castings, weldments, and heavy pieces.  The Unidrive transaxle - also used on the 5xi - was very pricey to machine since the case halves locate all the shafts and bearings with precision.  There aren't many shims in there, which means tight control was needed.  That transaxle was probably (certainly) the most expensive piece in the tractor.  That's probably why the 400xt series that was meant as a replacement AND used the same implements was transitioned away from the unidrive and the classic configuration.

 

The classic design was also a bit clunky and not really as competitive as it had once been.  The turning radius was huge.  The exposed pulley and belts are a safety liability nightmare.  It was gear drive.  And the styling hadn't changed since the 1984 Work Horse series.  It was probably just a tough sell against the likes of the Deere 325/345 type of tractor.

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Classic series.  But what was leading edge in 1973 (actually, earlier) was already dated in 1986 when Toro took the reins.  It was an uphill slog.

 

As for the vertical shafts, these weren't a Toro innovation.  In 1968 Wheel Horse introduced the Commando/Charger V series.  Then the Rangers in '69. Then the onslaught of A and B series, 200/240/250/260 series followed.   Most were WH designs except perhaps the 260 and XL and 400XT series.  But then again, even the 260 was based on the 240 which was an extension of the L-chassis 200's.  All of them were good machines...some more robust than others.

 

The Toro name didn't appear on the tractors until 1990.  I think 1991 or 1992 saw tractor production move from South Bend to Wisconsin (Tomah perhaps?) or Bloomington, MN.  If you're a purist and want Hoosier in your tractor, you need it to be a pre-1991.  I believe mower decks were still stamped in South Bend (but not by Toro corporate) until the early 2000's.  Maybe still today.  I don't know.

 

Toro shouldn't have much interest in obsolete product that costs them more than they reap. I am impressed that they offer the downloads and manuals that they do.  And they've done well keeping some older parts in circulation.  The last Classic GT was released in 2007 and I think they are only required to support them for 7 years, so we may see a clearing house of parts (meaning a scrapping) after next year.

 

Toro has been VERY good to the collecting community.  Remember the 2006 giveaway of the Classic GT?  And they had been sending Toro reps to the show since 2000.  I think we're lucky Toro bought WH rather than someone else.  Can you imagine the complaints we'd have if MTD had beaten them?

 

Support them and your local dealer when possible.

 

Best wishes,

Steve

Edited December 10, 2013 by wh500special