B80 won't move!

[dparke 16]

Hey all,

 

I just picked up a nice B80 for a song.  It has the three speed transmission, and dates to 1975 (I think).  Everything looks good on the tractor, but it won't move.  The shifter clicks into all the gears like it should, but it doesn't do anything.  I popped off the belt and you can spin the input pulley freely in any gear.  I checked the hubs and the keyway on the input shaft pulley, and they seem to be fine.

 

I plan on pulling out the trans tonight and getting in to it, but are there any common culprits I should be looking for?

 

Thanks for any advice you experts can offer me!

 

-Dan

 

[stevasaurus 22,872]

Before you drop the trans, put the rear end on blocks, put in a gear and turn the input shaft in a counter clock-wise direction.  One or both of the tires should turn.  Check the input pulley, shaft and key way.  Put trans into neutral and spin one of the tires...the other tire should move in the opposite direction.  You should also be able to hold one tire from turning and be able to turn the other one...try this on both tires.  Check to make sure the hubs are tight and keyed on the axles.  Your differential is OK if the above is true.

 

Now put into a gear and try to turn both tires at the same time.  They may turn, but it will be hard to do...they may also not turn.  This is a good sign.  Next, put back into neutral and pull out your shifter.  If you look down the hole, you should see 2 shift forks lined up forming a square.  Try moving one of them from one side to the other with a large screwdriver.  It should feel like you are actually sliding a gear on a shaft.  If so...the fork shafts are OK.  There is not much else it could be...let us know what you find.

Edited October 17, 2013 by stevasaurus

[dparke 16]

Alright, I'll check that out on my lunch break and report back ASAP.  Thanks!

 

-Dan

[jrc0528 20]

Also note is the brake drum is turning when you turn both tires the same direction, or if it turns when you put it in gear and spin the input shaft.  If it doesn't turn with both tires being turned the same direction than the problem is in the differential, if it doesn't spin with the input shaft while in gear the problem is in the  cluster gears somewhere.  Either way you'll be splitting the case open to fix it.

[dparke 16]

Well, I'd say this transmission is blown up right good. I jacked up the back end, put it in neutral and spun one tire.  The other side didn't budge.  You can spin all day long, and that other side isn't doing anything.  I double checked all the hubs/pulleys, and they seem fine.  The brake drum never moves.  If I put it in a gear and rotate the input shaft CCW, one tire will juuuuuuust barely start to creep forward, but it just moves ever so slightly.  I pulled the shifter and the forks look fine.  They moved just like they should with a long screwdriver. 

 

Whatever failed in it, seems to have failed totally.  Hopefully tonight or tomorrow I can get it pulled out and torn down to see what's going on here.

 

-Dan

[rmaynard 15,610]

Sounds like some damage to the innards. Assuming that you have a 1975, that means that you have a 4-speed (3 forward, and reverse). I have two 1975 B-80 transmissions here at my house. One has been completely disassembled, and is a parts unit. The differential is gone, but all the other parts are there. The other transmission is still attached to the B-80 frame and is complete. Once you find what you need, I can be a cheap source of parts for you. There are some other members on here who have lots of transmission parts as well.

 

Let us know what you find. These transmission are fairly easy to repair if you have a little mechanical ability and some basic tools. Usually the hardest part of repairing one is getting the hubs off the axles, and getting the hitch pin out of the back. After that, everything else seems simple.

[stevasaurus 22,872]

Yes...it looks like you will have to split it.  Sounds like it is in the differential.  It probably has the Wheel Horse # 5084 transmission.  Take some pictures if you would.  I am curious as to what you will find.   I would take Bob up on his offer for parts in this case.

 

I'm thinking that someone was really abusing this horse to do what I think is wrong inside.  Good thing is, it is very fixable, and you already have a heads up for parts.

When you go to split it...have the input shaft side of the transmission down, and take off the brake side half.  You will be able to pull the differential right out without taking any of the rest of the gears out...unless you want to check it all and clean it out.  Let us know what you find and if you need anything.

 

I like to try to guess what is broke in these cases...I am not always right.    I think you have 1 or both axle gears stripped of it's teeth.  This means that some of the pinions may be the same way.

Edited October 17, 2013 by stevasaurus

[dparke 16]

Thanks so much for the help and parts offers, everyone!  I did notice that the snap rings are gone off the rear hitch mounting pin, and someone blobbed some welds on there to hold it in, but they won't be too rough to grind off.  The hubs, however, I'm sure will pose a challenge.  Maybe I'll get lucky...

 

I'll definitely snap plenty of pictures of my progress.  I'm going to flush the trans out with some kerosene before I tear it down, so things will be a little easier (cleaner) to figure out when I'm in there.  Is this advisable, or should I just drain out the lube and tear in to it?

 

Thanks again everyone!

-Dan

[stevasaurus 22,872]

I would just drain it and tear into it.  To really flush it, you need to have the gears turning.  The trans is too heavy to just pick up and shake.   Just know that the seals may leak and you will have diesel all over.

I have made a couple of videos of putting a trans like yours together.  If you want, I can put the links in this thread.

Edited October 17, 2013 by stevasaurus

[SousaKerry 502]

Kerosene will definitely help, make it smell better too. 

[stevasaurus 22,872]

Here is the link...

 

 

Here is a copy of the manual also...Your trans is section IV.

 

http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/Transmissions/492-4004.pdf

Edited October 18, 2013 by stevasaurus

[dparke 16]

Yikes, those hubs are tough to remove! I got the trans out, and the left hub off. The right one, however, is not playing nice. I'll let it soak...

A quick question, will a six speed out of a raider 10 fit in this B80 without any major modifications? I'm debating trying it for a temporary trans so I can still use the B80.

Thanks for the help!

Dan

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[racinfool40 202]

yes it will fit with out any MAJOR mods..but take note were the brake hub is mounted on your B-80 trans and the trans out of the raider...depending on the year of the raider trans is I bet the brake hub is mounted different...Easy fix just have to make a different brake rod from the clutch pivot to the brake band.

[dparke 16]

Yeah, the brake hub is definitely a little farther forward, it seems.  It'll be interesting to try, anyway.  Any ideas on belt usage?  I'm thinking the B80 belt should pop right on, but I've been wrong before...    I just want to bolt it up to get the B80 out of my way for the time being, and then finish getting that other hub off and the trans torn down.

 

Thanks for the advice!

-Dan

[jrc0528 20]

Check the input pulley size as it can vary from unit to unit.  Also the input shaft can be either 1/2 or 5/8, so you may not be able to just swap pulleys.  I just finished a nearly complete rebuild on a 8-speed from a C110 and will soon put it in my 1055.  The old 1055 has a smaller input pulley on a 5/8 shaft, the new trans has a bigger pulley (which I don't think will work with the current belt guard) on a smaller shaft.  I plan to buy a 1/2 pulley the size of the old pulley.  
 

As for getting the hubs off, I made a custom puller from the center portion of a car brake disk.  Drill 5 holes in it sized for bolts that will just slip THROUGH the threaded holes in your hubs.  The hole centers should line up with the holes in the wheel horse hubs.   Get a piece of 3/4" threaded rod and a 3/4" coupling nut.  Weld (or have A friend weld) the nut into the center hole of the disk brake.  Thread 5 grade 8 bolts through the hubs and the holes in your new puller and run grade 8 nuts on until they are flush with the end of the  bolts.  Now run the 3/4" rod through the coupling nut until it is tight to the axle.  To pull the hub tighten each of the 5 bolts about 1/4 turn at a time.  It's slow, but it WILL pull the hub off or split it in half if it's that badly rusted! 

[dparke 16]

Well, after much pulling, hammering, and torching, I got the last hub off and the transmission opened up.  Not pretty...  I'll let the pictures speak for themselves here.

 

 

 

 

Apparently in a desperate attempt, the previous owner decided to pump a bunch of what appears to be lithium grease into the transaxle...  I'm not sure why.  Surprisingly, other than the differential, everything looks fine.  The diff, however, is another story.  The gears on the inside ends of the axles are wiped out, and the pinion gears, well, here's what's left of them:

 

 

 

Ugh.  On a lighter note, I contacted Bob last night and he dug a VERY nice differential assembly out of a B80 that he's providing to me for a very reasonable price.  So hopefully by next week some time I'll have this thing back together.  I'm not in any huge hurry, and in the meanwhile I'll finish cleaning everything else off and checking all the bearings, etc.  I looked into it for about two hours last night, though, and everything looks surprisingly good.  We shall see!

 

-Dan

[stevasaurus 22,872]

Trying to flush that out would have been a complete waste of time. It never ceases to amaze me what some people think these transmissions can do, and the abuse they take.  It may have been used as a pulling tractor, or maybe to pull stumps out...something like that.  How is the little pinion gear on the bottom of the cluster gear shaft?? (the one that engages the larger gear of the 11/44 toothed gear)  You're right...the rest of the trans looks good.    Thanks for the pictures.

[dparke 16]

Really, other than the axles and pinions, everything looked great inside!

 

Here's a couple shots after cleaning:

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,872]

Looking at your last 2 pictures...on your splined shaft (the one with the fork gears on it)  that little pinion gear goes on top of the "C" clip.  It should set even with and engage the reduction gear on the top of the cluster gear shaft.  (look at your 1st  picture in Post # 16). Man, it cleaned up great.

Edited October 22, 2013 by stevasaurus

[dparke 16]

Uh-oh.  I believe I had the splined shaft in upside down.  I just pulled it out along with the fork, and one of the balls popped out.  I found it, but after watching your video so I know how to re-install the balls/spring, I have a problem.  There appears to me some metal piece inside the little hole where you inserted the allen key to compress everything.  What am I missing here?

 

Thanks!

-Dan

[jrc0528 20]

Yup, they install a plug in that hole to keep dirt out and oil in.  You could try popping that plug out.  I can't remember how I did mine for sure, but I think I ended up popping that plug out.  

 

 

Edit:  Just remembered, I used an E-Z-Out to grab that little plug and twist it out.  It's really just a mini cold-plug.

Edited October 22, 2013 by jrc0528

[dparke 16]

Well shoot.  I tapped on it with a little punch and it seems to have disappeared into the bowels of the transmission...  Crap.

 

 

Wait, false alarm.  I actually just punched a hole right through it.  I'm tapping the hole currently to install a bolt.  It'll make a nice removable plug for future endeavors.

Edited October 22, 2013 by dparke

[rmaynard 15,610]

Well shoot.  I tapped on it with a little punch and it seems to have disappeared into the bowels of the transmission...  Crap.

 

 

Wait, false alarm.  I actually just punched a hole right through it.  I'm tapping the hole currently to install a bolt.  It'll make a nice removable plug for future endeavors.

Better use a set-screw that can be tightened to below the surface since that is the side that mounts to the frame.

Edited October 22, 2013 by rmaynard

[rmaynard 15,610]

Just thought you might be interested in what a non-abused, well maintained 38 year old Uni-Drive transmission should look like inside. This transmission has been sitting outside of my shop for at lease two years. When I got the B-80, I drained the oil and plugged the hole where the shifter goes. So what you will see in the next picture is exactly how I found the transmission when I opened it up last night. I honestly can say that I cannot find a single bit of metal or any evidence of water ever having gotten into this one. The previous owner must have taken meticulous care of his horse, and never rode it hard or put it away wet.

 

Dan - this is where your differential came from.

 

 

 

[dparke 16]

Whaddya mean, Bob?  That looks just like mine! 

 

Good call on the set screw, thank you!  I would have flubbed that one all up...

 

-Dan