should the 418-A (1987) have a 4 prong or 3 prong solenoid?

[valeri 0]

repair place replaced solenoid with 4 prong, but diagram in manual shows 3 prong... could this be why it won't start in the run position and only in the start position?

 

[Tankman 3,520]

Starts in the start position, runs in the run position. We talkin' key operation?

Pardon me, I'm a little lost. Can't wait to see the forum replies.

Welcome to the forums!

[posifour11 723]

Welcome.

[dsholler 54]

If I recall a post from Chuck (SOI) a while ago, there are a bunch of different starter solenoids, but usually the difference between the 3 and 4 prong ones are that the 3 prong is grounded through the tabs that attach it to the frame, and the 4 prong has a separate ground stud.

 

I think there are also some oddball ones, that have a 4th lead that is energized in the crank (start) position for some old ford engines that required higher output for a hotter spark when starting. I would imagine there are others, but chances are you would not have gotten one of those unless you specifically asked for it.

 

I do not understand what is happening exactly from your post, but I think you said that it does indeed start in the start position. If this is the case, then chances are you have got the correct wire to the activation tab, and the ground to the frame is OK. When you are in the start position, the activation tab is energized, and the plunger electrically connects the other two studs. Once things are running, you release the key to the run position, the studs are no longer connected, and the solenoid should be out of the picture. I know on my 414 there are bunch of leads grouped on the stud where the battery + cable is connected. (the - side is just a single cable back to the battery). Is it possible that you put some of the other stuff onto the - side? or that you took the ground off the old 4 prong and attached it to the 3 prong? That would cause all sorts of problems,I would imagine.

 

might help to know what model and what exactly is happening...

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Val, 3 vs 4 terminal starter relays are not a problem (when the individual doing the repair understands the differences).

 

I'm going to guess what you meant to say was the tractor will run if you keep the ignition switch in the START position but the tractor will shut off if you let the ignition switch return to the RUN position.

 

Confirm my suspicion and If that is the case, the person doing the repair placed the power lead to the ignition switch (orange wire in the diagrams below) onto the STARTER side of the solenoid. The power lead to the ignition switch should be connected to the BATTERY side post of the solenoid. This is seen with on occasion with folks redoing C series and this symptom exists under a special set of circumstances. Not sure it applies to the 400 Series without seeing the schematics.It is worth a quick visual check given your short description of the problem..

 

I will try to download a 418 wiring diagram in case this issue requires more in depth effort beyond a simple misplaced wire.

***  Looks like Dan may have beat me to the punch here. Didn't we just have one of these same issues recently on another post?

 

 

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

A four terminal solenoid will require the 4th terminal be connected to a chassis ground on the tractor. Four terminal solenoids DO NOT pick up their ground thru their metal mounting tabs like three terminal solenoids do.

 

(ignore the purple jumper in the diagram below)

 

[valeri 0]

Thanks for all the help!  It is a 418-A 1987 - (chassis model 31-18KE01) - the repair place replaced the solenoid, but said the starter switch was shot, and he could not order a replacement part - we finally found a replacement starter switch, but yes, "Save Old Iron", the tractor starts in the START position  but the tractor will shut off if you let the ignition switch return to the RUN position, and if it's in the run position, then it will only start if you arc it ... if that makes any sense... it's early here, I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet....

 

 I do have a 418-A wiring diagram (thanks to a post I found on here), and everything seems to go where it's suppose to go, but I am going to check the solenoid wiring again, with the diagram you just posted....(I am by no means a lawn tractor expert repairman.....but I don't think the repair shop guy was either  )  Does anyone know where I could download a copy of the complete 418-A wheel horse manual? They seem to have every model BUT the 418-A online....

 

 Again THANKS for ALL your input, I greatly appreciate it!  Especially since I have 'no idea' what the repairman "did", so am following wires based on diagrams to try and figure out what the heck is going on now..... Hope you all have a fantastic day!  

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,112]

Operator manual

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/348-tractor-1987-400-series-om-pt2-810473r1pdf/

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/1519-tractor-1987-400-series-om-wiring-pt3-810473r1pdf/

 

Garry

[KC9KAS 4,741]

Thanks for all the help!  It is a 418-A 1987 - (chassis model 31-18KE01) - the repair place replaced the solenoid, but said the starter switch was shot, and he could not order a replacement part - we finally found a replacement starter switch, but yes, "Save Old Iron", the tractor starts in the START position  but the tractor will shut off if you let the ignition switch return to the RUN position, and if it's in the run position, then it will only start if you arc it ... if that makes any sense... it's early here, I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet....

 

I may be wrong, but I think she is saying the "repair-man" said the KEY (starter) switch was bad and she found a replacement.

It may be the wrong ignition switch.

 

Where are my manners......Welcome to Red Square!

[WH nut 553]

This sounds weird, If you place switch in run and jump the solinoid it will run, but if you start with switch in start it dies going to the run position. Sounds like run position is good if it runs in the run position. if you have a volt meter or test light, check and make sure you have power on the run terminal while switch is in run. Next with test light still on run terminal watch light as you put switch in start and back to run. You should have power the whole time.

[dsholler 54]

I may have gotten there before chuck, but I realized I said the wrong thing. I said negative side when I meant starter side. In looking at the wiring diagram I cannot figure how it could run when you jump the starter, but not when you use the key. My original idea that the repair guy had swapped the wire to the fuse does not fit, because then it should not run at all .

Unless I am misreading the wiring diagram, it appears that the dc accessories are connected to the rectifier tab on the switch and vice versa, but it should not matter because they are both activated(connected) or not t the same time.

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

I may have gotten there before chuck, but I realized I said the wrong thing. I said negative side when I meant starter side. In looking at the wiring diagram I cannot figure how it could run when you jump the starter, but not when you use the key. My original idea that the repair guy had swapped the wire to the fuse does not fit, because then it should not run at all .

.

 

 

 

Dan, yes

 

that was the special set of circumstances I mentioned in the post. I was trying to remember the situation we ran into months back.I believe the symptoms were the engine would run when the operator was jumping the two posts on the starter relay but the engine would die when the jumper was removed. In addition I think the engine was K coil based and not a magnum.

 

In Val's case, it is now certain we are dealing with a magneto based engine. Once the engine is started, the only way to kill it is run out of gas or ground the magneto kill wire. By logic, we have confirmed the power lead to the ignition switch must be correct to be able to power the ignition switch to power the starter solenoid. .

 

We now have the question "what's happening at the magneto kill wire?"

 

Chances are we may have incorrect wiring or an incorrect / defective ignition switch grounding out the mag kill wire when the ignition switch is released back to the RUN position.It is also possible for the wiring bundle from the back of the ignition switch to be pressing up against a piece of metal from the tractor chassis. A hole worn thru the insulation of the kill wire could be grounding to the steering column or other chassis parts. Being the engine does start, it would have to be a intermittent short to a grounded chassis part.

 

Val, if you don't have expertise with a multimeter, we can either help you develop enough expertise to troubleshoot this issue or you can go the route of assuming the ignition switch is defective and replace it (not a costly guess - about $20).

 

You will need part # 109931

 

http://www.partstree.com/parts/?lc=toro_consumer&mn=31-18KE01%2C+418-A+Garden+Tractor%2C+1987&dn=810480R1-80R10042-00020

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IGNITION-KEY-STARTER-SWITCH-KOHLER-Many-Models-25-099-02-25-099-04S-/161018287782?hash=item257d7016a6&vxp=mtr

 

p.s I believe the 3 vs 4 terminal starter relay question can be put to rest. The starter relay is functioning as it should.

[WH nut 553]

SOI

 If its a magnum it really makes less sense now. All a magnum needs is gas and spin to run. If the ign switch was grounding in run it shouldnt run when you jump the solinoid.I havent look at the diagram yet because my internet is so slow to down load, but this is going to be an interesting one. It would be intersting to know the symptons leading up to the no start. Did it all of a sudden not start or was there anything leading up to this?

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Val,

 

one more question - and take no offense to this but it needs to be clarified - there is a difference between the engine CRANKING in the start position and RUNNING in the run position. Not having worked with you before on this forum, I just wanted to make sure you are aware of the difference between CRANKING and RUNNING.

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

SOI

 If its a magnum it really makes less sense now. All a magnum needs is gas and spin to run. If the ign switch was grounding in run it shouldnt run when you jump the solinoid.I havent look at the diagram yet because my internet is so slow to down load, but this is going to be an interesting one. It would be intersting to know the symptons leading up to the no start. Did it all of a sudden not start or was there anything leading up to this?

 

Yes, a VERY good question to ask when starting to troubleshoot something. The events leading up to the failure.

[WH nut 553]

Val,

 

one more question - and take no offense to this but it needs to be clarified - there is a difference between the engine CRANKING in the start position and RUNNING in the run position. Not having worked with you before on this forum, I just wanted to make sure you are aware of the difference between CRANKING and RUNNING.

Ahhh  good question SOI

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,112]

SOI

 If its a magnum it really makes less sense now. All a magnum needs is gas and spin to run. If the ign switch was grounding in run it shouldnt run when you jump the solinoid.I havent look at the diagram yet because my internet is so slow to down load, but this is going to be an interesting one. It would be intersting to know the symptons leading up to the no start. Did it all of a sudden not start or was there anything leading up to this?

The 1 page wiring diagram from the operator manual

 

Garry

 

Adding - made a mistake in the manual number in the file name so changed the above link to correct it.

[WH nut 553]

 

SOI

 If its a magnum it really makes less sense now. All a magnum needs is gas and spin to run. If the ign switch was grounding in run it shouldnt run when you jump the solinoid.I havent look at the diagram yet because my internet is so slow to down load, but this is going to be an interesting one. It would be intersting to know the symptons leading up to the no start. Did it all of a sudden not start or was there anything leading up to this?

The 1 page wiring diagram from the operator manual

 

Garry

 

Thanks garry

 

 

Just looked at the diagram and its the simple magnum wiring. If it spins and the mag is not grounded it should run. Im guessing whats happening is the switch is wrong and somehow the mag is grounded in the start position.

 

Next question is if it runs when you jump the solinoid, does it shut off with the switch?

 

 

Off to work so I will have to catch up with this tonight. Good luck

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

the only thing I see on the diagram is the kill wire appears to be labeled dark blue and the white is connected as the charge wire. The Kohler M18 service manual shows white is mag kill ...?   The kill wire is white on my 416 magnum.

 

Either way, if you can locate an electrical connector with 4 wires near the engine, one wire being white, you can separate the connector and prevent any switch or wiring issues from stopping the engine.

 

 

 

 

If you then start the engine and it runs while the connector is apart, the mag kill wire must be getting grounded somehow.

 

When you reconnect the electrical connector back togetherand the ignition switch is turned to OFF, the engine will (should) stop.

 

 

[dsholler 54]

One thing I have learned through my experience as a computer programmer is that if something behaves in a way I do not expect, it is usually the last thing I did that caused that behavior, even though I have no idea how the behavior is related to what I thought I did..

 

I would go back to the original test that WH Nut suggested, to make sure nothing is funky with the key switch. Since that is the last thing you replaced, and since we know the solenoid operates because something happens when you turn the key to start it seems that the next step is to test the switch.

[WH nut 553]

No updates?

[valeri 0]

Sorry, it's been rainy and really cold here so have not been back out to the garage to 'work' on it again. Will definitely keep you posted!

[valeri 0]

Hubby says it starts in the run position and actually kills it if you turn it to start, the ignition switch is working fine so it's not that. For some reason solenoid is getting power in the run position but not the start position. In short, it shouldn't "start" in the run position, it should "start" in the start position, then automatically go to run, instead of shuttling off. From your diagram above though, it appears as though the starter wires on ours are not connected properly. So that may be the issue right there.

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Next question then.

 

All the electrical wiring we are concerned with plugs onto terminals on the back of the ignition switch. The wiring can either be captured in a single black plastic connector- or - if each wire to the switch is fitted with a single push on insulated terminal, the wires would not key automatically to the correct switch terminal and mistakes could be made

 

If you have a single black plastic connector on the wiring, all wires would connect to the switch at one time and would (should) be in the proper orientation If someone wired in a new multi connector to replace a corroded one, they could have made the wrong connections to the new multipin connector.

 

Do not go any further until you understand one very important warning.

 

If you connect 12 volt power to the wire leading to the WHITE wire for the magneto kill function - you will burn up the magneto within seconds. Never let 12 volts find its way onto the magneto KILL wire.

 

First off, we need to identify what ignition switch is currently on your tractor. There are basically 2 types we will be concerned with. One is for magneto engines and the other is for coil based ignition engines.

 

A picture of the back side of the ignition switch without any wiring attached to it would be helpful for us to see - post it here. If not, I'll post a visual comparison of the two types you are likely to encounter as replacements.

 

Correct style ignition (note terminal designations - No "I" terminal exists on a mag switch and the mag swith has an "M" terminal which the coil based ignition will not have)

 

 

 

IF you have the correct switch and IF you have individual wires plugged into the back of the ignition switch, I believe you may have the trigger terminal of the starter relay incorrectly attached to either the "A or "R' terminals of the ignition switch. The starter relay trigger wire should be attached to the "S" terminal of the ignition switch.

 

The Kolher M wiring diagram I posted also shows a "map" under the switch. The "map" calls out what terminals on the switch are connected together when the switch is in each one of its three possible positions. Look at the START function of the switch map. B+S means the BATTERY is connected to the "S" terminal of the ignition switch when the switch is in the START position - and only in the START position. The map show no connection to the "S" terminal to any other terminal in the RUN position, therefore your wiring is suspect.

 

The only time the starter relay trigger (3rd terminal as you say) show have 12 volts on it is when the ignition switch is in the START position.

 

This is at least one of your issues Your additional clarification of the symptoms has allowed us to make forward progress.

[WH nut 553]

Any updates?