Hitches

[Greg B. 1]

Gotta come up with something for the C-165. I would really like a 3pt hitch, but over on the WH Hitches board, a member says that the long frame tractors aren't suited for one. Is this accurate? Am I stuck with finding, or fabricating, a clevis hitch?

I have a JD integral (Clevis) hitch, off an old round fender, that I could modify. I'd really prefer a 3pt, though.

Greg B.

[Mith 2]

You are only really limited to what you can design and build. You'd have to add a bit of steelwork for the lifting mechanism and toplink, the lower arms could pivot on a bracket attached to the rear axles.

Somewhere, I'm sure I have a picture of a 3ph someone made for a C series, I'll have a hunt on my HD......

[Greg B. 1]

Much appreciated, Mith.

I'm a pretty fair fabricator and work a drafting table okay. I just don't want to reinvent the wheel. The geometry is a bit of a stumper. There must be an optimal height, length and spread for the lower arms and a preferred dimension for the vertical separation of the arms and center link.

The gentleman, mentioned in the above post, claims that the stock tires don't allow enough ground clearance. I had considered putting 26" ags on the tractor, but was budgeting them for further down the road.

Thanks again,

Greg B.

[kpinnc 11,895]

Well, the C-195 (or "Super" C) had a three point hitch. It's a bit longer than a regular C series, but the business end is the same...

I'm working on a 3 point right now. I haven't decided if it's going on the Bronco 14, or something else I'm "working on". If you can make it work, then go for it. Just like Mith said, it's up to you.

Good luck Greg, be sure and post plenty of pics.

Kevin

[Rollerman 290]

Kevin the C 195 had larger tires & rims on back like the GT14

Greg the C 195, GT14 & D series all could be had with an optional 3 point....but it was rated as a category 0 & many implements will not fit....but you being a fabricater makes that a non issue?

Another option is a Sears style 3 point & there are many sears implements available at the tractor swap meets.

Generally the 23" tall tires don't make the back of the tractor high enough to use most category 0 & up implements.

Here is a small 3 point I picked up from a friend that was fitted to a Wheelhorse with HYD lift to raise & lower.

I may use it on my 1055 with a modified Sears 3 point plow

Stephen in northern IN

[Curmudgeon 28]

I believe the C-195 had larger rear tires though, providing the afore mentioned needed ground clearance.

Dale

[kpinnc 11,895]

I didn't think about the wheel size.

I still like the idea, and plenty of different tractors with the smaller tires came with them! Sears Suburbans were very popular, and had all different kinds of Brinly "Cat 0" implements. Dare I say several green tractors have them with 12 inch rear wheels... I don't think ground clearance is a big issue. How many Wheel Horse tractors use Brinly style towed implements? Quite a few.

A three point hitch, if anything, would give much more ground clearance than a sleeve hitch or slot hitch. That's usually as good as a drawn implement gets on a WH tractor.

Greg, I'm putting one on my tractor, and I guarrantee you it will work great. This site has tractors with home made front end loaders, and they work very well. Of course they can't be compared to a Caterpillar D12 , but they work very well for the use the builder intended. The point is, without doing something completely rediculous, these machines were overbuilt, and can handle just about anything you give them within reason.

Stephen, I really like that "concept" hitch you got there! I'll bet you'd be surprised how high it would lift an implement. The only problem you're likely to have is is the top link hitting the fender pan.

Kevin

[Greg B. 1]

I kind of admire Stephen's hitch, myself.

I thank all of you for your input, and you have me pretty much convinced.

Have to give more thought to hanging anything from the axle. I know it's done all the time, but it kinda goes against the grain. There is a nice design, in the gallery section, over on WFM. I like the idea of a separate cylinder, as opposed to using the deck lift cylinder. Gonna have to crawl under this thing and explore the hydraulics .

I'm rapidly becoming a real Wheel Horse fan, but I'm trying to maintain my objectivity. When I jump back and forth, between the C-165 and the 300, the WH comes off a trifle primitive. I sure wish she had the JD's hydraulics! How would you guys upgrade this area? A FEL and a box blade would be my idea of heaven...., at least for now.

Thanks, gang,

Greg B.

[Rollerman 290]

I'm not crafty enough to build a 3 point...well with enough duct tape maybe?

The Sears 3 point hitches hitches like what mine is patterned after are smaller yet than a category 0.

They were designed to use Sears own house brand of 3 point implements.

Stephen in northern IN

[Mith 2]

Greg, I'm stuggling to find the pictures now.

Basically, the bottom links joined onto brackets on the rear axles, and the lift was actuates from a bar attached in the same place the bar attaches for the lift on a clevis hitch on the 300 series.

If you are going with a hydraulic lift you have more options.

I added hydraulics to my 312, powers the loader and backhoe (option is there for aux hydraulics too). Pump is belt driven off the PTO.

[Nick 13]

Tractor hight isnt a real big problem just have to build around the limitations. Steiner and Ventrac tractors only have 21 or 22" tires but they have a 3pt hitch. Also not sure I see the problem with mounting the 3pt to the transmission. Wheel Horse attached the snow plow, tiller, Vac system and the FEL to the axle. I think a lot of tractor atatch the 3 point to the axle, the Steiner and Ventrac I mentioned both do. Ventrac 3 point The steiner is Cat-0 but I think the Ventrac might be a limited Cat-1.

Wheel Horse did stay kind of basic not adding power steering or aux hydraulics. But not many brands have the compatibility of both parts and attachments from 1973 to 2007, even longer with little modification.

[Greg B. 1]

Mith,

I do appreciate your efforts to educate a newbie.

With the loader and hoe, you obviously have some serious hydraulics involved. Would it be asking too much for you to spec out the major components? Our tractors seem to be headed in roughly the same direction..... More to construction than agriculture.

I've been toying with the idea of mounting a slab of 1/2" plate across the rear of the frame and working from there. With the necessary tabs, brackets and mounts, it would be a nice heavy component, right where it's needed. Kind of like the guys do with the Sears conversions, but industrial strength!

Any and all feedback is most welcome.

Thanks,

GregB.

[Mith 2]

Greg, I'm happy to share all the details I can.

I rebuilt the fender pan and added more supports to the gearbox, and bolted a 1/4" plate to the back. There isnt much meat to bolt onto on the stock setup. If you can you really want to tie the chassis into any plates you add onto the back, take some off the load of the 4 bolts that hold the trans on.

I have a 9gpm pump under the seat. A belt comes off the PTO, and connects to a shaft that goes across the tractor just behind the engine, then another belt from there to the pump.

The hydraulics are all under the seat except for the valves and the tank.

If you are thinking of making a backhoe I'd suggest starting with a bigger tractor, I am a little concerned about how long my trans will hold up with the weight of the hoe hanging off the back.

The WHs make a fine loader tractor though.

[Nick 13]

Mith,

Dont think Ive seen any pictures of your backhoe. Do you have any posted? Be nice to see how you put yours together.

Ive been planning a backhoe for while now (had the bucket, cylinders and valve for near 2 years). The weight is going to take its toll on the transmission but it should hold up. How long depends if the hoe is mounted all the time or just when being used. Ive been temted to build a trailer mounted hoe to pull behind the tractor. Not sure if I would use hydraulic power from the tractor or spend the extra cash for a small pump and engine. I like the trailer idea so I can drop the backhoe and use the loader separately in tight areas.

[Greg B. 1]

Nick

I found Mith's backhoe thread, over on MTF.

Mith,

9gpm.... That ought to move the accessories smartly! Thanks. Do you think my old K341 will have enough oomph to run that pump, and the tractor?

I'm inclined to go with Nick on the tag along backhoe, but I do want the 3pt and FEL.

You have, however, solved my fender problem. They also make a good, solid mount for a sun shade. It gets HOT in Alabama!

Mith, except for tying in to the hitch pivot, I was going to bypass the tranny/axle assembly and bracket forward, and tie into the frame.

Where's your gas tank?

Greg B.

[Mith 2]

Nick, all my most recent pictures are quite dark (gets dark at about 4pm). I'll add about the best one I have. I'm waiting on some hoses to finish.

I went with a mounted hoe over a trailed one for 2 reasons. Firstly, a combined unit is much more compact and maneuverable than a trailed hoe. Secondly, digging power is in part dictated by the weight of the machine. With all the weight of the tractor on the stabilizers it should be less prone to getting dragged about. In the videos of the trailed units you see they are all getting dragged about by the digging arm.

I estimate the hoe will come off the tractor in about 5-10 mins. I'm expecting I'll be taking it off when not in use to save the trans as you suggest.

Greg, I've got 12HP and it was fine running the pump for the loader. Infact, because of the high flow I rarely ran over 1/2 throttle.

I have my roll bar mounted on the bars that run across the back. Its taken a few whacks and all is good. Its nice to have some heavy metal to bolt onto

The 2 black bars the go down just on the inside of the wheels go over the top of the axles (and bolt on to them) and attach to the frame infront of the gearbox mounts.

Fuel tank is on the right hand fender.

Thanks

[refracman 167]

Mith, nice job on the backhoe, i was wonderin if you made some prints up first for the backhoe, i have been wantin to make one for some time and since the gt is in the shop.....

And on the 3pt, the gt 14 lower 3pt bracket will fit on any WH rearend, if you want some pics and #s let me know.

[Nick 13]

Greg, Thanks for the info. I had never seen the MTF site until I saw it here, guess I need to look around more. If your down in Alabama guess you dont need to rush that 3pt for a rear mounted snow blade.

Mith, Nice looking backhoe. It is kind of a trade off weather to go with a tractor or trailer mounted backhoe. If its easy to get off the tractor then no problems there just have to make a weight bracket to mount when the backhoe is off. Also Im I bit slow but after looking at your pictures a few times it hit me why I couldnt figure out something. You must have a quick attach system so the main suport stays on the loader then hooks into the loader bucket. Nice idea, might have to change mine to something like that. Lot less work than pulling pins to change from the bucket to forks and back. :D

[Greg B. 1]

Thanks, Mith, for the data and the assurances.

Refracman (does this name have anything to do with the melting of metal, as in refractory?), most assuradly I would like to see some pics and numbers. I'm sure others would, too.

All of this information, as it should be, is put into the hopper and blended, before being taken to paper. I rarely build anything without, at least, a working drawing. Erasers, to remove lines, are much lighter than angle grinders, to remove welds!

Greg B.

[Mith 2]

Refrac, thanks. I made some working drawings on the computer before making anything. They are all in 3D so a little hard to interpret. I could pull some 2D drawings of the digging arm off if they are of interest to you. The chassis of the hoe is made out of a girder I had lying around, so wont be of much interest.

Nick, thanks. Yes, I have a quick attach for the loader bucket. Takes about 45 seconds to change from forks to bucket. It still has 2 pins to hold the attachment on, but it hooks on, so you dont have to lift the attachment to line up the pins, they just slide in.

[refracman 167]

Greg, yup i work in steel mills, ive worked on the furnace floor, tundish yard and in the degasser, im a sevice guy mostly work on the equip, but can do the gunnin when they find me

Anyhow heres some pics of a gt14 3pt set up

the width of the lower bracket is with a 1 1/4 width for arm placement

the width of the arms where the implements attach is 20 1/2 approx

as in the next pics the gt has a aux setup for settin the hyd cyl right on the lift brackets, total lift at cyl is only 4 in

after ya think about some more, ifin ya need more info let me know

[Greg B. 1]

Nick,

No I don't need the snow blade, but we did have a hard freeze here, last night. The new purpose in this tractor's life is to help build a new workshop and my Live Steam railroad. Purely a construction worker.

Refrac,

I thought the pics would be file photos. Man, I'd have never asked you to go out and take pictures. It's gotta be colder'n an ex-wife's heart, where you are!

How does that tie in, across the bottom? Some how it has to, or there would be an enormous lever arm effect on those axle brackets. That's what my concern has been, putting a twisting moment on those cast iron axle housings. I'm not, in any way, being critical. Just thinking out loud.

The numbers are a big help. It's nice to have a baseline to return to, when ones last idea goes south!

Thanks, again,

Greg B.

[refracman 167]

Greg no worries my shop is heated

The frame on the gt14 is built better than most WHs all "light" parts are made out of 1/8 steel and it goes up from there, ive lifted maybe 600lbs with the 3pt and ive never noticed any thing twistin around.

the houseing on the rearend is 1/4 in thick on all WHs, with the frame being attached to the top and front of the trans on the gt14 it dosnt twist,

but i see what ya mean, with the lighter framed tractors i could see it happening although they share the same rearend houseing

ps. the width of the rearend mount is 14 1/2

[glenn27 71]

Refrac...-Thanks for the pics of the three pt. on ur GT-14..

.I'm still looking for one--got outbid yesterday for one on e-bay...but I'll find one...

Now just need the pics for the front blade/middle link hookup..

take care!!

glenn

[kpinnc 11,895]

Hey Greg,

I'm thinking like you as far as being concerned about stress to the tranny and frame. But, I think most anything you hang on a "non- Eaton" WH tranny would be OK. The only reason I would question the Eaton transaxle is because the left half of the case is kinda thinner than the other, but I've never seen one break either...

It's a good idea on a three point hitch to keep the "pull point" in line with the tractor's horizontal center. It's usually even with, or just below the axles in the rear. This not only improves traction under load, but also reduces the stress placed on the frame and transmission. Also, the closer together you keep the lower arm mounts, the less leverage you place on the transmission case axle housings.

I made a hitch for my leaf vac that ran completely under the transmission and also bolted to the frame on my 310. The hitch only pivots up and down, and the vac itself is on casters. When she's fully loaded, I places a tremendous strain on the hitch. You may want to consider a similar setup if you have concerns on your hitch. Here's the best pics I"ve got:

The two square tubes running under the tranny go from the bottom of the hitch to the frame in front of the transmission. They're welded at the hitch, and bolted to the frame.

There's no left to right movement on this thing. The wheels are on casters, and the whole assembly only pivots up and down. It's a whole bunch of twisting force on the tractor. When it's full of wet leaves, the front tires will slide a bit before I can turn the tractor, unless I have weight on it.

I don't think you'd break the tranny regardless, but maybe this will help if you're concerned about it. Even the D160-D200 use the same rear setup on the 3 point that Refracman showed, at least as far as the lower arms. That's where all the work is done anyway.

Good luck! I hope mine is finished soon too!

Refracman- I have to say thanks for the pictures too. They are great!

Kevin