kohler kt17 series 11 redo, rebirth, resurrection, hopefully re-something.....

[Martin 2,132]

i posted this in engines, although its not exactly in a wheel horse, hopefully it soon will be used in one......

finally got the kt17 from my boss and got it in the garage to fire it up, maybe......

i left it in the tractor it came in, ih682, and hooked up a battery to see what would happen. all the wiring looked ok, so i thought id take a chance and kick it in the guts and see if i hear good things or not.......

well, i dont hear it running yet, but theres no funky noises going on in there when turning it over either....

i got to the stage where i think the starter is jamming up and the bendix is going to need some work. it turns over by hand fine, very tight though, i guess im just used to buying loose motors that will spin over quickly. i put a torque wrench on the pto end to see how much force it takes to spin it with the plugs out and it was about 150-200 in lbs..... does this seem high?

there was a crap load of mice nest in the blower housing and because its still in the tractor the rear cylinder shroud (in a wheel horse application) is almost impossible to get off with the engine in the tractor. the blower housing is also going to be near impossible to get off with it in there as well....

i want to clean out all the crap, maybe pull the heads and check out the cylinders, mess with the starter, and put it back together and hopefully fire it up.....

if its good, it will end up with a blackhood over it, just not sure which one.......

 

 

 

 

 

[Martin 2,132]

just to make things more difficult, jeanine came out to look at the tractor and thinks i should keep it together. i really dont want to start another brand of tractor....

 

but shes pretty convincing........

 

and this thing is really straight.....

 

and its red, ih red, i think i can find some of that at work.......

 

guess we will see how it runs first before i start something crazy.......      

Edited March 17, 2013 by Martin

[Moparfanforever 851]

I have a very stout 18HP Magnum (just about the same as the KT) and it has 130 lbs of compression. Looks like it was running lean. Does it have the high speed adjusting needle in the carb ??

 

I mess with Cubs as well as WH tractors, from my experience you would be way ahead just to go ahead and pull the engine. Makes it ALOT easier to clean everything out and get the starter off. It is not all that bad of a job.

 

You can buy starter rebuilds for it. I had a tractor that i fought with trying to fix things and it turns out the starter wasn't spinning fast enough. Never knew the difference since my other tractors starters sounded the same. I bought a NEW starter and WOW , it started the engine in 1/2 turn !!

[Martin 2,132]

thanks for the info. ive been searching and found this on the starter as well......

 

http://cubfaq.com/kstarter.html

 

i read through it and mine has the symptoms such as squealing and bendix sticking,  as well as slow cranking, which seems to be fairly common from what ive read so far.....

[Moparfanforever 851]

I usually get my parts here ...

 

http://www.psep.biz/store/kohler_starter_motors.htm

 

http://www.psep.biz/store/kohler_starter_parts.htm

[Martin 2,132]

this engine has a really late serial number and i noticed that the tins were gray where they overlap each other. the engine looks like it was oversprayed at one time black, so im just wondering how late this engine is.....

 

searching trying to date it somewhat...

 

 

 

 

edit: just found a chart on serials and its a 1989 engine......

 

 

for a 10 digit serial number, the first 2 digits.......

 

15............(late)1985

16....................1986
17....................1987
18....................1988
19....................1989
20....................1990
21....................1991
22....................1992
23....................1993
24....................1994
25....................1995

Edited March 17, 2013 by Martin

[Moparfanforever 851]

David Kirk has a writeup in his Killer Kohler rebuild where he uses some newer parts out of a newer starter.

 

PDF Files , so hope this works ..

 

http://www.kirkengines.com/downloads/KillerKohlerPartII.pdf

 

OOOOPS , this is for a K series !!!

[Moparfanforever 851]

The spec no. is for a Cub. Not sure about the date.

 

Not sure if it helps , but the Kt's i have taken apart all had the gray inside them , even the few Series 1 i have taken apart. I am not sure if they were like the newer single K's that were painted gray.

 

Sent you a PM.

 

Darrell

[Martin 2,132]

The spec no. is for a Cub. Not sure about the date.

 

Not sure if it helps , but the Kt's i have taken apart all had the gray inside them , even the few Series 1 i have taken apart. I am not sure if they were like the newer single K's that were painted gray.

 

 the tractor is a 1982 from the tag on the chassis. the engine must have been replaced with a new one in 1989 (or later maybe). the spec number is correct for a cub cadet manufactured 682 with the series 11 engine.....

 

i guess they did the gray on the later engines, until i got this one the latest one i had was a k301 from 1980 and that was just the black applied direct to metal.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Martin

[Martin 2,132]

small update. got heads off engine, bores look ok and valve seats look ok, minor play in guides, its probably one of the better condition engines ive pulled down that wasnt running....... because this spent so much time in 'storage', sitting in a field, there is rodent nests and crap everywhere inside the air cooling paths of the engine. flywheel and stator covered in junk and this combined with the stuck pto was causing the tightness in engine rotation. 

just reinforces the fact that these kohl's, and any air cooled engine, that has sat for some time, really need to at least have the tins pulled and cleaned out prior to running them.....

 

[smoreau 658]

All My KT17's were painted like yours, that was normal. They came standard gray then painted black after they were built. That does seem a little high on the rotating torque. Did you check compression before pulling the heads? New parts are hard to find for these. Most guys use used rods and pistons on them over aftermarket. I haven't gotten too involved in a rebuild yet, but do plan on taking a good running tapered shaft generator engine and changing the crank to one that had a rod brake in half. I will be watching this build!

 

I had to replace the starter bushings on all of my KT17's Normal problem an is actually a easy fix

Edited March 20, 2013 by smoreau

[Martin 2,132]

scott, i sorted the rotational problem, was a tight pto. got it off and engine seems to turn over nice. i cleaned the rest of the crap off it tonight, dismantled the starter and pulled the carb. carb was full of gum and varnish, bad......

will soak it and put it back together. having a hard time finding a basic walbro carb kit, seems the 2575708 has been discontinued and you need to buy the more comprehensive 2575711. $35 for not much more than a float needle, plugs and a few different gaskets. cant just buy a basic kit like on the small kohler carter carbs. i just want to get it back together and see if it runs, not wanting to sink money into it until i know for sure it doesnt have a knock. im sure it will run fine, everything i pull is in really nice condition, this thing doesnt look like its got a lot of hours on it....... even the carb tonight except for the crap in the bowl and passages, looked like new. the throttle and choke shafts freed up nicely with just a good soaking of pb blaster. i will soak the carb in cleaner tomorrow and put it back together. just need to check out the fuel pump and ignition and we should be good to go. the starter needs bushings bad. where did you pick up bushings scott?

 

gave the rest of the tractor a bit more of a clean and freed up the hydro shift linkage, once the engine is back together it will be time to see if everything works. 

if the engine and hydro is good the tractor will get rebuilt and the horses will have to share space with the 682....

if the hydro is junk and the engine is ok it will be going into a blackhood.......

if the hydro and engine are junk then all of it will be parted out, at this stage i would be very surprised if the engine lets me down though.......

right now i have zero $ in it, so not much to loose there......

[Wheel-N-It 2,969]

Martin, I am glad you are trying to bring the CC back to life and put it in the barn as a worker with your horses. Those old Cubs are tough as nails. They may not be built like a tank, but they are dang sure built like a tractor! If I can give you one piece of advice, when you change the hydro fluid, use only the factory Hy-Tran fluid. There is no substitute for Hy-Tran. You will need to buy 2, one gallon jugs. The hydro unit will take about 1 & 1/2 gallons. Don't forget to buy a cover gasket along with the fluid and filter.

[SousaKerry 501]

Martin,

 

If you decide to put that engine in a blackhood let me know I did the exact same transplant several years ago.  You've seen the tractor in Charlotte.  I believe the spec number on mine is 24301 so just a few years older then the one you got there.  Oh and my tins are grey under the black also.

 

[smoreau 658]

Martin This is the kit and you have to get the aftermarket kit to get the bushings.

http://www.mfgsupply.com/smallengine/smengstarter/smengstarterkohler/26-9218.html

Edited March 20, 2013 by smoreau

[Martin 2,132]

getting closer to hopefully running. ive been spending 4 to 5 hours a night this week cleaning and fixing all the problem areas on this thing, finally its just about back together. went to the local case ih dealer and got a filter and rear case gasket and will drain the hydro tomorrow night before trying to start it. engine is done, just need to hook up the drive shaft and clean the gas tank out.

 

 

[Lost Pup 172]

My purchased 417-8 has a transplant KT 17 from a Cub when I aquired it. The original owner never used the PTO.

 

I had to work the PTO a bit to actually use it. The crank diameter was ok but a bit short. My use is limited to the tiller in spring and then just a plow for winter use. I can pull my PTO bell to take a look if needed to refresh my memory.  Other than that the cub KT17 was a direct fit to the WH. The wiring of my 417 was/is original, I found no mods to the harness that I could find from the transplant.

[Martin 2,132]

pulled the rear cover on the hydro tonight and drained the fluid. changed out the filter and refilled with new case hytran type fluid (farm and fleet version). will make sure all is ok with the trans before dropping near $45 on the genuine fluid......

the old fluid and inside the rear looked really clean, just a little dark streaking in the fluid that was left in the bottom of the carrier, but no moisture and no chocolate milk in there......

found some small amounts of metal like material in the bottom, a small amount about 1/3 the size of a penny in total. just hoping thats not a sign of trouble ahead. 

just need to clean the garden out of the gas tank now and some new gas line and a filter and we should be ready to see how it runs, hopefully!

 

 

[Wheel-N-It 2,969]

OK Martin, looking good from where I'm sitting. I sure hope everything works as it should with this Cub.

[dbartlett1958 96]

Wow,

 

That rear end is pretty substantial for such a small tractor.  Looks very clean also.

[can whlvr 993]

interesting thread,im a true horse guy but i like the looks of those cubs,they were popular around here because farmers would buy a large case and get a really good deal on a small one like that

[Martin 2,132]

little bit more of an update. got engine ready to start, gas was hard to get up to the carb, even with pressurizing the tank. eventually got it up there. i had spark at the points, but it still wouldnt fire. pulled a plug lead and no spark... just couldnt get any at all at the plugs so time to investigate......

sure enough, testing the coil primary and secondary circuits revealed 4.5 ohms on the primary (spec 4 to 5 ohms) and 0 on the secondary. subsequent testing has given me 1 to 2 k ohms, but no where near spec (9.5k to 11.5k). so ive sourced a 65-79 (5 ohm primary) harley twin fire coil (for points ignition without magneto). that should be here thursday. the kohler coil was just a little out of my price range...thanks for the tip on the coil, tt.....

while im waiting for that I've been through some of the electrical, cleaning grounds etc at the dash etc. one area where this thing was really bad was electrical grounds. 

 

also did a compression test just to see where its at after replacing the head gaskets and cleaning things up a bit. left side gave 75 on the first push and 100 on the second and wouldnt budge from that. right side (remember this is in a cub) pushed 75 on the first and 105 on the second and that was it. so we have 100 and 105. 5% difference between the two sides.

next i did a wet test as the first was dry, squirted a small amount of oil in each cylinder and spun it over a few times so my compression tester wouldnt end up full of oil. left side up to 110 and right up to 115. i think once we have spark there it should be a runner.....

i havent done a leak down test on it......

and i picked up a oil filter adapter so i could mount an oil filter on the engine. pn # 52 181 03.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Martin

[Martin 2,132]

well it runs and it runs really well........

and the tractor drives awesome, except for the heavy steering.......

vids to follow, once they upload......

 

this one is staying together, looks like the horses are gonna share space with the 682........

[Martin 2,132]

heres the vids.......

 

 

 

[the sommoner 13]

Coming from a cub guy,after doing all that work I would keep it with the rest of the reds.You did a great job getting it running.Have you figured out why it isn't charging?