C-165 No Go

[rfhouser 3]

Well, gentlemen (is this accurate? or do I need to be politically correct and address you as Wheel Horse Lovers?), this is my first post and I am looking for your help.

I own two Wheel Horse garden tractors, an early 1980's C-165 / 8-speed and a mid-1990's 416-H. Both tractors are workers; I would love to restore the C-165,

but I am using it all the time! This past Saturday we were using the Black Hood with our 42 inch snow thrower (I live in northwest Connecticut, and we were digging out from

24 inches of snow), and the transmission stopped transmitting. My 19-year old son was operating it at the time, and I do not know if it was a coincidental failure, or if it was

a result of his being impatient and trying to move the snow with the transmission in the high range. Anyway, it just stopped moving. The motor was running fine,

and when I checked the gear shifter I could move it anywhere in the H-pattern, with the clutch engaged, and got nothing. No movement, and no grinding of gears.

I have read all the posts on this thread, and I am impressed with your willingness to help. Following the tips that I have read here, I jacked the rear wheels up off the

ground and gave them a spin. The differential appears to be unaffected. Next I tried to assess the input pulley so I started the engine and observed the pulley

spinning freely. I will remove and dismantle the tranny if I need to, but I'm hoping that someone here can maybe know what's not working right and perhaps save me

from going into the transmission case. All those gears and parts give me cause to pause. I have rebuilt engines, but I have never been inside a transmission!

[Sparky-(Admin) 23,690]

I would take a look at the key on the tranny input pulley, sounds like it might have sheared off.

Mike................

[rmaynard 16,496]

:WRS: Welcome. Plowing snow can take it's toll on a lot of mechanical stuff. But here are my thoughts.

The engine is driving the belt, which in turn is turning the input pulley on the transmission. However, is the pulley actually turning the input shaft. I have seen sheared woodruff keys on the shaft. Next, did you possibly shear a woodruff key on one of the axle hubs?

Sorry, MIke, you beat me to it

Edited February 14, 2013 by rmaynard

[rfhouser 3]

Thanks for the quick replies.

I checked to see if the input pulley was moving around the drive shaft — it wasn't. The shaft was moving at the same RPM's as the pulley.

I don't think that either of the keys on the axle hubs is damaged, since when I jacked up the rear and turned the wheels, they spun in different rotations.

[rmaynard 16,496]

With the the rear end jacked up, you can spin the wheels and each goes in a different direction. That is good and proves that the differential is working, but did you try it with the transmission in gear?

[rfhouser 3]

That's just it — it won't go into gear. When I move the shifter through the H-pattern, 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear and reverse, there is nothing there.

I feel a very slight clicking into place in each location, but it is not like the old feeling of going into gear. Could the problem be a broken shifter fork?

[rmaynard 16,496]

Can you get the shifter out? Here is a picture of what the shifter forks should look like when the transmission is in neutral.

[rfhouser 3]

I'll try to get to it this weekend.

[rmaynard 16,496]

I have seen it before, the ball at the end of the shifter will sometimes break off. That's a whole other issue.

Let us know what you find. I'm sure others will chime it with their opinions as well.

[rfhouser 3]

Thanks, Maynard.

I'll keep you posted.

[racinfool40 203]

Might also want to check the high/low shifter to make sure it is engaged in either high or low..It might have got bumped where it is not engaging.

[Don1977 605]

It could be the High - Low shifter fork that is broken. You should never change the High - Low shifter unless you are completely Stopped.

[rfhouser 3]

Thanks, Don 1977

I will try to check that out later in the weekend.

As I said, my 19-year old was operating the tractor when it happened, so I do not know if that

is what he did. It very easily could have happened.

[rfhouser 3]

Well, I thought that I would get to my 8-speed the very next weekend. NOT! Life in general, and the need to make a living, gets in the way. Anyway, last week I removed the tranny from the C-165 and brought it to my workbench,

where it sits. Today I started to take it apart. I have followed the dismantling procedure, but am stuck on splitting the case. The bugger is not coming apart easily, and I am afraid to do any harm by hammering on the case. Does anyone have any suggestions. Stevasaurus, are you out there?

[stevasaurus 23,440]

Yes...run a razor knife around the seam cutting the paint.  Find an edge that sticks out a little...usually around where the slot hitch is.  Take a sharp chisel  and nail it fairly good.  If you get an opening, stick something in there and work the chisel around.  The case is pinned on opposite corners and you are actually lifting up about 1/4 to 3/8" to clear them.  Make sure you have the shifter out and the shallow side of the transmission down.  do not be afraid to hit the chisel and also do not be afraid to run the seam with that knife.  I use a wood chisel that I am not going to use anymore for wood.

 

If you have rebuilt engines, this is an easy job with the help here...if you need any parts, we can set you up also.

Edited April 22, 2013 by stevasaurus

[Rock farmer 43]

I like to use a stiff putty knife. You can tap on the edge of hit with a hammer if you need to. Just work around the perimeter tapping as you go.

Joe

[rfhouser 3]

Stevasaurus and Rock Farmer Joe, thanks for your replies.

I followed your advice and was able to get the case apart. Once I removed the differential/axle assembly and the pinion shaft/bull gear assembly, I immediately saw the problem. 

It looks like the high/low shifter fork broke off. I assume that is what it is. It is thinner than the two shifter forks that I can plainly see.

When I remove the remaining gear assemblies, I will have a good look at the high/low gear mechanism.

 

All the gears look to be in good shape, as do all the needle bearings that I can see, as well as the two 1533 ball bearings. So I think that all I need to do is get a new high/low fork

and new seals for the axles, the input shaft, and the brake shaft; and a new shifter boot.

From the photographs that I will attempt to attach, it looks to me that some water got into the case and mixed with the gear oil.

I do want to say what a comfort it is having access to this site and its very helpful members. It's a huge help to this newbie.

Here is a SHOUTOUT to   Stevasaurus!

Without your videos on re-assembling an 8-speed tranny I may not have attempted to do this by myself.

The schematics in the repair manual are enough to scare anyone but a very experienced mechanic.

So thank you, big time.

 

I will keep you posted on my progress.

[stevasaurus 23,440]

Nice pictures and that trans looks very good inside.  Glad to be able to help.  Thanks

[rfhouser 3]

Well, everything but the high/low reduction gear is out of the case. The broken culprit was indeed the high/low shifter fork.

My parts order is in and I will work on cleaning up the rest of the tractor while waiting for the parts.

By the way, is it best to put in the new seals before or after installing the axles and shafts?

Attached are some photos of the cases ready for the parts and reassembly.

And, once again, my thanks to all who have replied — and a special thanks to Stevasaurus for his helpful video. 

[stevasaurus 23,440]

You can put the seals in either before or after...I like before, but your preference.  Just make sure all burrs are filed down on all shafts (ends and key ways) going through seals...it is not hard to cut the rubber and end up with another leak.  Using a piece of masking tape over the key ways and ends of the shafts is a good idea also.  Thanks for the kind words.

[rfhouser 3]

Stevasaurus, you are most welcome.

Your efforts in sharing your experience with the transmissions is very much appreciated.

[rfhouser 3]

Parts arrived from Toro, late yesterday. So, the reassembly begins.

[rfhouser 3]

Problem encountered :

the 8-speed tranny is assembled, the hubs and wheels are attached, and my son and I mated the whole assembly to the rear frame plate.

However, I am not able to get the high/low range shift lever back on the high/low shifter shaft.

When we disassembled the entire rear end, I remember that we punched out the roll pin and removed the hi/lo shifter before we removed the tranny from the frame,

as it appeared that there was no way to wheel the tranny away from the frame with the hi/lo shifter still in place. 

So I figured the sequence is the same in reverse. 

Does the tranny need to be mated to the frame with BOTH the shifters attached?

If so, the only way that I can see getting the hi/lo shifter in place — underneath the brake transfer mechanism — is to lift the tranny and wheels off the ground to create

a sharp enough angle to guide the hi/lo shifter under the brake cross-over shaft. 

For those who have done this before, what is the best approach?

Thanks

[WH854 45]

I put the Hi-Lo shifter in after I had the transmission bolted up, then put all the brake hook ups after I don't think you can get it to go on any other way.

 

Chas

[stevasaurus 23,440]

Got to tell ya, I've never had the pleasure of putting them back in the tractor...except for my 702.  The manual says something about guiding the shift levers up through the frame rails when taking it out and putting it back in..  Looks like the factory has the shift levers in before mounting the transmission.    Check out section V of the manual.

 

How did the trans go back together...it really looked nice inside.