Kohler k321 Funny Sounds

[tomtractor 71]

Hello,

I have a Kohler k321 - 14hp. on my power king built in 1976. It starts up really nice and has good power. Although the motor sounds funny. Sounds like something is loose inside. Knocking sounds which increase with throttle. No smoke. I have changed the oil, tune-up etc. The sound goes away - a little - under load. The sound is always there - cold or hot. Any thoughts where the sound is coming from. What should I do?

[AMC RULES 37,141]

Make a short video of it running, and post it here...might help the engine guru's diagnose it for you.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,145]

Do a forum search for "grenade gears".

It's possible what you're hearing is bad bearings/shafts in the counterbalance gears.

They can be accessed by removing the oil pan and eliminated without any ill-effects. It'll only cost you the price of an oil pan gasket and an hour or two of labor.

If they are the source of the noise and you continue to run it, they will eventually remove themselves - normally through the side of the block. :hide:

[tomtractor 71]

Remove the counterbalance gears through the oil pan? Does the motor need the gear? Or replace the gear with a newer version.

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,349]

Look a couple posts down...

[tomtractor 71]

So the knocking is coming from the Balancing Gear? So you are suggesting removing the motor from the unit. Take off Oil Pan - and shatter the balancing gear for removal. Is that correct? Could the knocking be coming from somewhere else?

[tomtractor 71]

Anyone know how difficult is it to remove a motor from a Power King 16/14 built in 1976.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,145]

So the knocking is coming from the Balancing Gear? So you are suggesting removing the motor from the unit. Take off Oil Pan - and shatter the balancing gear for removal. Is that correct? Could the knocking be coming from somewhere else?

The counterbalance gears COULD be the source of the noise - as could the connecting rod, wrist pin, piston-to-bore clearance, etc.

The only way of knowing for certain is to remove the oil pan and inspect the internals.

Regardless of the source, you need to investigate and correct before catastrophic failure occurs.

I can't see where engine removal would be overly-complicated on a Power King. I had a '69 here a long time ago, but can't remember specifics. :scratchead:

[Martin 2,133]

i would be hoping that the balance gears are the culprit. they are an easy fix.

if not the balance gears, then it probably means rod, piston, any of the reciprocating/rotating assembly which usually means throwing $$ at it.......

while youre in there removing those gears (first thing i would do) have a good look around to see if anything is real close or touching as you turn over the crank. the rod comes real close to the camshaft on some of these kohlers, especially if the camshaft is a little thicker right where the rod passes through on its journey.....

hopefully its an easy and $0 fix for you.......

[squonk 41,648]

Anyone know how difficult is it to remove a motor from a Power King 16/14 built in 1976.

I showed you some pics on the PK forum or look here:

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=187470

[tomtractor 71]

Thanks for the info. I will study and look into my options.

[squonk 41,648]

Since your not sure where the noise is I would tear the motor down and check everything. I have a K341 apart and everything looked good to the naked eye but it needs to be bored, both rod ends are out of round and it has microscopic cracks. Piston is also out of round. You might as well go through it.

[Wheel-N-It 2,969]

Try resetting the points to about .015

This will retard the ignition timing a bit. If the noise then is not as pronounced as before, then you are probably looking at a connecting rod or wrist pin knock, but more than likely a connecting rod knock. I am suggesting you do this because you said the noise is not as bad when the engine is under a load. If the noise is still the same then it may be the balance gears. Either way, don't keep running it and destroy the engine. Its alot cheaper to rebuild the one you have than to repower it with somethng more modern. Besides, a tractor like that needs an engine with a big ignition coil hanging off the side of the block.

[tomtractor 71]

So I have decided to check the adjustments on the valves (measure for tolerance) and clean the head of carbon. I am hoping this clears up the tapping/knocking sound. Any SUGGESTIONS/tips for doing these tasks?

I guess I will need a flat feeler gauge, torque wrench, new head gasket. Any thing else? Sorry If I sound clueless, this is all new to me.

[can whlvr 993]

just take note on how the breather assembly comes apart to put it back together right

[Duff 206]

Tom, no such thing as clueless - a whole bunch of us, myself included, started working on these tractors with little or no mechanical background. Between the folks here and the manuals available on line you can get through almost anything! Keep the questions coming; no one will think the less of you for it.

Duff :thumbs:

[tomtractor 71]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Now get ready for the barrage of questions... or maybe Monday when I get around to working on it.

Duff - I lived in the Upper Valley for years. Great place to live!

[squonk 41,648]

While you got that head off bring the piston all the way to the top. First look for any size stamp on the piston head to indicate if the motor had been worked on before. Set your finger on top of it and with the other hand rock the crank back and forth. See if you "feel any slop or delay of movement" between the piston and crank. This would indicate a worn crank or rod. If you feel slop hang on tight. I tore down what I thought was a decent spare K341 for my 160. Every thing looked good to the naked eye. Piston was .010 over. Took it to a machine shop and the crank had been turned once and was out of round. A new crank was over $350 and a piston was $250. He doesn't recommend aftermarket for worker motors. PK blocks are different in how the bell housing bolts up. Mission Manufacturing sells complete PK engines.You might have to bite the bullet if you plan on keeping it.

[tunahead72 2,448]

So I have decided to check the adjustments on the valves (measure for tolerance) and clean the head of carbon. I am hoping this clears up the tapping/knocking sound. Any SUGGESTIONS/tips for doing these tasks?

I guess I will need a flat feeler gauge, torque wrench, new head gasket. Any thing else? Sorry If I sound clueless, this is all new to me.

Have you checked the Manuals section here on RedSquare? There's several owner's and service manuals there that you should probably take a look at before you get too far into your project. You can also get a parts manual from the Kohler web site.

There's also a nice writeup on the whole head gasket routine here, I use it as my standard reference for that task these days, you might find it useful too:

http://mgonitzke.net.../headgasket.pdf

One more thing -- have you checked the points like Wheel-N-It suggested? That might give you a clue also.

Either way, good luck with your engine. I have some noises on one of my K241 engines that drive me nuts every once in a while, I should probably start pulling it apart this winter, we'll see....

[tomtractor 71]

I hope to rectify the tapping/knocking sound with a head cleaning. What do you all think. I removed the head, clean carbon and plan on replacing new head gasket. Any feedback??? There is no more carbon chunk. It does not appear to be a STD piston.

[1054josh 25]

In my opinion it looks like you have a lot of piston to cylinder clearance in the bottom of the clean picture. I would also be wondering what the burn look on the valve side of piston is? Looks like might be starting to have a hot spot melting the top land of piston. At this point I think I'd just take it on down to be safe. But again its just my opinion.

[Duff 206]

Hi, Tom,

What you've done so far looks really good. Be sure to vacuum the area around the piston carefully with a Shop Vac to remove any tiny particles of carbon that may have dropped into the bore between the piston and the wall while you were scraping.

Duff :thumbs:

[Anglo Traction 761]

Hi Tom, I'm no Veteran Kohler Engine Re-Builder, I've done 3 so far. From what I see in your pics, The knock/noises will not be cured with just a Top end clean.

There appears to be a lot of Oil Wash on the piston top. This is where the oil passes the Rings and cleans the Carbon off. There should be an even coating of Carbon all over the Piston surface (like the rest of the Valve/Seat area). However, you say it does not burn oil (no smoke), so not sure what condition your Rings/Piston fit are like.

I reckon the only way to work out what is going on , is to pull the Oil Pan and check inside.

Your Piston does not look standard Kohler, the ones I've pulled have a dimple in the top centre from the machining process, so someone may have been in there in the past.

From what I can see, the Cylinder Bore walls look clean with no scoring or wear lip near the top.

May be best to give it a full health check, it will put your mind at rest and it will give you long service.

Regards

[tomtractor 71]

The discoloration on the piston is carbon/sludge i didn't fully clean off. I didn't know how much scrubbing/scraping is good.

[3609horse 27]

I am glad I came upon this topic. I just bought a c120 hydro from a freind and he had just installed a running 16hp Kohler in it when I got it. We had to hot wire it to get it on the truck and every thing ran fine. Got home and was taking it off the truck and it started making noises like something was rubbing , a metal to metal noise. It got worse them more

I drove it. I got it to the garage and it was very loud. I left it for the night and found this thread and today I took the motor off dropped the pan and found the balance gears loose and one of the gears had stripped teeth,Removed the gears and put it back together and fired it up no more noise and it runs great now, I have another motor with the same noise now that I know what it could be it was worth taking before the guy scraped it. All I can say is thanks to everyone on this site and even tho I didn't ask directly you have solved my problem.

Thanks to all who comment.

Gene..