Crank 20 times before Kohler's start

[Forest Road 594]

21 hours ago, Stormin said:

I've fitted primer bulbs in the fuel lines on my tractors. Just a squeeze and your off.

 

 

 

Ive been using primer bulbs for a few years now. Haven't had a hard start since! 

 

Also use $15-20 solar battery chargers, available at Harbor freight and northern tool.  It's a world of difference having a well charged battery when these tractors sit for months on end

[Tonyp 284]

my take, after having "starting wars" with my 310-8, It was never  the 10 HP Kohler, it was always gas feed and losing prime. 

If you have not done it yet, pull the fuel pump, check those silly check valves,  especially on the inlet, it may very well be unseated.

 

Also be sure there are NO LOOSE fittings between the tank and the fuel pump.  The slightest loose fitting or leak will cause a loss of prime and prevent fuel from being drawn to the fuel pump.  A handful of small hose clamps , one placed on each fitting can solve that.  

 

Sometimes we just assume the gas line is all ok , sometimes it is, sometimes it's not.  Last season I found it was  easier and faster to replace the entire gas line along with a new filter. I also used the small hose clamps on each fitting.

 

It's a drag for sure , I really need to change the check valves or the entire fuel pump on my 30 year old 310 , but evidently I love the misery ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Tonyp

[Warning:Unsupervised 81]

Ya' the old pump rebuild kits are no longer available through Toro or Kohler for the original metal pumps but are available through ThenandNow website. If anyone wants one but can't locate your pump kit on Then-Now.com website contact the company (see below) and give them the fuel pump part or kit number off your Kohler parts diagram or if you need help they are very nice people there and will help out anyway they can.

  Example: My pump kit #JPG68kb for a B-100 K241-10hp Kohler was offered for $37.50 to my door but I have yet to get it because as I said on here before mine still stays primed unless I run it dry, then simply fails to pick up on its own without priming. Also' I'm still leaning towards installing an electric pump too just because they start easier from everything I read on it.   

 

Here is what I found by typing "Kohler" in the website search to help get someone started, may be more on here idk?  http://then-now-auto.com/?s=kohler

 

Lisa Pawlik
Then And Now Automotive 
447 Washington St
Weymouth,Ma 02188
781-335-8860      781-335-1925 Fax 

http://then-now-auto.com/

Edited December 26, 2016 by 123GO

[Sarge 3,463]

Be aware of one thing - a well sealed system and a mechanical pump is still about the best way to go in my opinion . Years ago they made reliable electric fuel pumps , but those days are gone . If you put one on a tractor you rely heavily upon - I'd highly recommend having a spare pump on hand . This is one area (like our tractors) where they don't make things like they used to . Walbro used to have about the best pump design out there with nice rebuildable valves and a bullet proof diaphram system . The old USA made Facets were pretty good and if you can find a JD dealer it's common they stock the US made version for converting some of their equipment over to electric but they aren't cheap by any means - around $100 . You do not want the imported Chinese version of the Facet nor the ones from Mexico that the auto parts stores carry - they are a failure waiting to happen . We used to use those along with a regulator from Facet on Weber carb conversions and switched to Walbro since they were so much better . Finding an original Walbro is a joke and they go for big money now - not to mention they are not compatible with ethanol laced fuels . That ethanol is the biggest problem overall - eating pump diaphrams , check valve seals and carburetors /fuel lines . Use the new fuel lines from motorcycle , marine or atv applications as it's now designed to withstand the new fuels and won't degrade - it's an upgrade worth doing .

 

Sarge

 

[formariz 11,987]

 

 

Correct about the potential difficulties with electric pumps. I have already been down that road. Not only are the non American made pumps inferior quality, they cannot be trusted as to their correct output most of them putting out a lot more pressure than specified therefor overtaking the float. I have then also resorted to fuel pressure regulators  to control them and that has also proved to be an exercise in futility and wasted money. Now there is only one type of pump used here and that is the American Made Facet. Careful also choosing which one because although they are all visibly identical there are only a couple which put out the correct pressure for these small carburetors. The price will be a good indicator if it is the correct one since those are really scarce. They are pricey in most places but I have been able to find them for about $40.00 to $50.00. I will look for my receipts and post source once I find them.

Here is one source with the correct pump, no regulator needed, alcohol safe:

http://aftermark.net/40177-facet-cube-solid-state-fuel-pump/

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by formariz

[Warning:Unsupervised 81]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Be aware of one thing - a well sealed system and a mechanical pump is still about the best way to go in my opinion . Years ago they made reliable electric fuel pumps , but those days are gone . If you put one on a tractor you rely heavily upon - I'd highly recommend having a spare pump on hand . This is one area (like our tractors) where they don't make things like they used to . Walbro used to have about the best pump design out there with nice rebuildable valves and a bullet proof diaphram system . The old USA made Facets were pretty good and if you can find a JD dealer it's common they stock the US made version for converting some of their equipment over to electric but they aren't cheap by any means - around $100 . You do not want the imported Chinese version of the Facet nor the ones from Mexico that the auto parts stores carry - they are a failure waiting to happen . We used to use those along with a regulator from Facet on Weber carb conversions and switched to Walbro since they were so much better . Finding an original Walbro is a joke and they go for big money now - not to mention they are not compatible with ethanol laced fuels . That ethanol is the biggest problem overall - eating pump diaphrams , check valve seals and carburetors /fuel lines . Use the new fuel lines from motorcycle , marine or atv applications as it's now designed to withstand the new fuels and won't degrade - it's an upgrade worth doing .

 

Sarge

 

 Thanks Sarge'

 Yep' I know the electric pumps are junk today so I would only run Facet & regulator if I go this route. Shame we don't care about build quality today.

 Also' the ethanol is a major factor in everything. I do small engine repair for people in the summer so I've replaced more needle/seats in small engines than I can count over the last few years. I've even pulled several off the curb side and fixed them for the people who got tired of starting issues and tossed them. People are shocked to learn it's only a few bucks & 5 minutes to fix them & even less with the brass seat design. It swells the needle valve tips and they won't seal, causing carb flooding and fuel in the crankcase. It's trash!!

The idiots in Washington wanted to raise the ethanol content even and would have but car makers threatened to not warranty new cars if their owners ever ran it in them. Then they got the message...duhh

[Sarge 3,463]

ATV , snowmobile and other manufacturers have already been known to deny warranties on engines that exhibit any signs of alcohol fuel usage - they cannot seem to build an engine that can withstand the excessive heat and moisture along with the acidity of the ethanol fuels when it's an air cooled system . I too have repaired a lot of carbs , replaced fuel lines , vacuum and mechanical pumps and such from ethanol use - I hate it but have made a few bucks from it as well as put out some serious education to the equipment's owners . I will not run ethanol fuel in my '77 Land Cruiser FJ40 nor the '14 Dodge Ram pickup's Hemi - I like things that last and keep things for a very long time .

 

That said , here's some other insight from all I've learned over the years working on carb fuel systems -

If you run a Facet , regardless of USA or not it really needs a return line which is not easy on our tractors . If you want maximum life from an electric pump this is the only way to make it work . Using those dial-type regulators from Purlator (Chinese knockoffs only now) or the multi-branded Holley block style is a problem waiting to happen . None of those small , low-pressure regulators are consistent for very long and they will/do fail regularly .

No USA made regulator available for sub-3psi pressure ratings and if you did find one it's well north of $100 . Best method , and I know folks won't like it is to add a bypass type fuel filter near the carburetor such as the Fram or Wix unit made for the older CJ series Jeeps - they work perfectly . I put a tee fitting below the tank outlet on the D-180 since it already had a dead Walbro pump on it that was just rusted out internally from water and ran the bypass line into that tee fitting . So , it has dual filters , a bypass and just circulates the fuel around drawing what it uses from the tank to supply the loop . It flows fuel constantly to cool the pump and remove the stress off it's diaphragm by pushing any excess pressure up into the tank's supply outlet and tank vent . Best scenario would be to add a bulkhead fitting into the tank itself near the top or next to the fuel cap but that will change the looks of the older units with an exposed steel tank . It's not an easy move to bore a hole into a perfectly good tank , so the loop is what I ended up doing for now .

 

Here's some pics to iillustrate what I'm rambling about -

 

Fuel filter at the carb - available at any auto parts store . Application is late 70's CJ model Jeeps . Note the bypass line coming off the end of the filter - there are two outlets instead of one .

 

 

The fuel lines at the tank - note that the pump is fed from the bottom in the picture and is ran along with the return line through the frame on the big D . The return is plumbed into the bottom of the tee block to allow excess air bubbles to rise into the fuel tank . If done this way , over time the bubbles in the fuel system will disappear - unless you run it out of fuel and they will come back . The bubbles don't hurt anything - the system more than keeps the carburetor's bowl filled at full working rpm under a load .

 

 

Yes , that is a cheap knockoff pump but with the return system it has lived now for around 50hrs of work time with no issues . I intentionally built the system this way to allow the pump to be quickly changed with a simple pair of pliers . The fuel line is the newer ethanol compatible line from Parts Unlimited - available at any small engine dealer that handles snowmobiles , atv's and other small equipment . I got two different bulk rolls from a local Harley dealer since they use the stuff on their motorcycles . It can handle high temperatures and will not degrade from ethanol or racing fuel use with the exception of nitro methane . If anyone is running that , I want to see a video , asap ....

 

This is the same way I built the fuel systems for offroad trucks that run extreme angles and are still running a carburetor . I built and modified Weber DGV and DCNF series carbs for years and still do an occasional job or consulting for several shops/suppliers including Redline Weber NA . The internal mods to the carburetors are still a protected secret , so don't ask and I shipped them worldwide as a built system along with the customer's stock intake system that was flow modified as well . It's common for offroaders to remove a stock smog system carb for more horsepower and to simplify their fuel system . The Weber kits are a common swap but out of the box they are not designed to handle angles greater than 35* before spilling the float bowl vent into the air jets and fouling out the engine . Mine would run at 90* easily and never leak nor vapor lock .

 

 

For those that don't believe those cheap regulators will fail , here's what can happen when they do fail on a highly modified engine running a very large DCNF Weber - fuel pressure went north of 7psi and a Weber's limit is about 3psi -

The high voltage ignition system and Denso U-groove spark plugs didn't care about the fuel mixture - it did it's best to keep running but it was shut down to prevent engine damage and pulled out of the depression . No fuel in the oil , thankfully and it survived the rest of the day's fun...

 

 

Questions - just ask...flame on

 

Sarge

 

[Warning:Unsupervised 81]

Nice job Sarge, thanks for the info...

[formariz 11,987]

And that reply from Sarge is the prime example why this place is such a treasure chest.

 

So, just to summarize that post and see if I understand it correctly. Utilizing a filter with a return inlet at carburetor and directing that back to tank one not only allows constant cooling of pump due to the constant flow back of fuel not being utilized by engine but also effectively reduces fuel pressure at carburetor inlet. Do I have it right?

[Sarge 3,463]

Yup , exactly right in summary . There are other factors , but that design prevents any chance of the float being overrun by excessive pressure . Those filters are designed specifically to provide positive flow to the port for the carb , with the excess being directed to the return port . Those small pumps are run by a simple magnetic solenoid - it's plunger is what actuates the diaphragm and along with the check valves is how they move fuel and build pressure . Low pressure pumps use a weaker magnetic coil , once it loads to it's limit it sits there and just holds a resistance until the back pressure against the plunger is released . Problem comes when those pumps are moving very little fuel - such as idle . If the coil plunger sits in one position for very long they build up excessive heat and burn out the coil windings . US made Facets still use a pretty heavy winding compared to the imported cheap knockoffs (like the one on my D) but if you allow them to run with a very low load they will cool themselves and actually last quite a long time . Somewhere around here I have two different pumps cut apart to explain the differences , but haven't seen that box in years . It was used to explain my argument against using a cheap knockoff versus the US made real thing from Facet . I still hate the basic design and prefer the older Walbro , but if you actually find a NOS Walbro be prepared to pay dearly - they are amazingly expensive .

Walbro used a relay cut contact - when the pump hit's it's limit pressure , the solenoid's power was cut . When pressure released , the solenoid comes back on - a very simple contact and dead reliable .

 

Sarge

[formariz 11,987]

I had another question regarding the point at which the return starts but you sort of answered it. I wondered that if instead of the filter a T fitting could be used at carburetor since the point of the return should be as close to carburater as possible, and the room or conditions for a filter there are not always favorable. My concern with that was if then enough pressure would go into carburetor or if the path of least resistance would take over and not provide enough fuel to it. Perhaps have a fitting with a much smaller leg on return would work?

 

From your description I now understand fully how these pumps really work  and see the benefit of the return. Using return may also now allow me to use a cheap knockoff pump like yours that I have. I had put it aside since it put out too much pressure. It would overtake float at idle but work fine at high throttle. I tried a cheap regulator with it, but made no difference and regulator would occasionally start leaking thorough joint in case, so I just put pump to side and replaced it with the Facet.

[formariz 11,987]

"Finding an original Walbro is a joke and they go for big money now - not to mention they are not compatible with ethanol laced fuels "

 

@Sarge  Is this the Walbro pump you refer to?

 

FR-PumpBrochure.pdf

[Sarge 3,463]

Those pumps aren't what they used to be - much like everything else .I've been out of the loop for too long to give any real feedback about their current lineup and reliability/lifespan . They are not cheap and I think there are also China knockoffs floating around to this day despite our best efforts - I've also heard there are Weber knockoffs showing up again that even have the logo cast into the float bowls , suspect I'll start getting tech emails about those soon when they fail .

 

I did build quite a few with a second outlet on the carb tapped and fitted with a factory Weber fuel line fitting - I had tapped the small end of the fittings where they are swelled to hold the fuel line tight (rolled bulge in the brass fitting) and used a stock Weber idle jet to control the flow rate . It's tricky to get the right balance on the 4 & 6 cylinder engines as you don't want to starve them at full load , especially the modified ones that have had a lot of extensive machine work - that isn't cheap on odd market engines . The nice part is the return was adjustable in being able to swap jet sizes easily , which in turn controls the pressure in the system .

 

Gasoline has one inherit trait that can be used in our favor - much like in the offroad fuel systems , it will always take the path of least resistance . The fuel filter used in the pictures has a small restrictor inside and the filter itself helps divide the incoming pressure via the return . The only issue is when the filter becomes plugged - I don't remember what the micron level of filtration it's rated for but I had found it once and it's not that small , hence the main feed side filter before the pump to prevent pump failures . If the fuel line itself degrades ( I will not use any of the black rubber line anymore) it could plug the filter at the carb , but the engine would just show a loss of power at full load and eventually just run out of fuel while the bypass is still flowing easily . I use the semi-transparent ethanol compatible line to be able to quickly diagnose a plugged filter or pump issues and flow rate with a quick visual check even though I never use ethanol blended fuels . It really irritates me to have a fuel station 4 blocks away that I can't easily fill up the big D's huge tank - he doesn't have a non-ethanol grade available so I have to go either 7 or 13 miles to another town to fill up the two big cans . I normally keep around 10 gallons here so it's not a problem . To add further insult , the non-ethanol grades can run $0.85/gal higher around here in corn country since it's not subsidized by our tax dollars -- but that's a whole different subject and I'm not even going to get started on a rant that would plug up the internet...

 

There is the option of using two different line sizes . You could run the standard 1/4" line used on the engines/tanks and make the return sized down to 3/16" - that would work for higher flow rate/pressure pumps but I would highly recommend installing a glycerin-filled gauge at the carb inlet to make sure the pressure doesn't exceed 2.5-3 psi max . The whole thing depends on the carb's design and how much leverage the float can generate against the inlet needle and seat to control inlet pressure spikes - which is always the main problem with electric pumps . The best rebuilt mechanical pump I've found on a Kohler only generated 2.3psi at full governed rpm and a good float/needle should be able to control that easily . Electric pumps rated at 3psi can spike to over 5psi easily - haven't seen one that doesn't do it yet due to their design . The only ones that are super consistent are the electric rotary pumps and those absolutely have to be run with a return line to allow them to run continuously without too much restriction or they will fail . I've got a big Carter rotary that died from a plugged return line when I flipped the truck and broke a transfer case mount off , smashing the return fuel line shut .

 

Anyway , that's the basic reasons for doing a system this way and I'm starting to ramble too much plus getting a nice headache from reading again...if you have any other questions/ideas - just ask .

 

Sarge