BREAKERLESS STARTER SWITCH

[rockinhorse 45]

I am building a w/h tractor that has a breakerless (no points) charging system. I know nothing about this and have managed to not label everything before i tore it apart. I did take some pics and labeled some wires . The starter switch has a loose post so i need to change . does anybody have a # for this switch? On the switch 1 big black wire goes the starter, 2nd wire goes to ground the motor , orange wire goes to center post on rectifier, little black wire comes from coil pack. Now some how i managed not to identify where the positive cable on battery goes and where the neg. cable on battery goes. If someone has a couple of pictures i could see it would help a lot . Is there anything special about this system that i need to know . Can i get the starter switch from NAPA?

THANKS Karl

[rockinhorse 45]

Sorry forgot to tell it's a 12 hp kohler engine. There where no serial #'s on engine.

[pfrederi 17,490]

What model tractor are you working on. The breakerless Kohlers I have seen were on Chargers/Eelctros but they had solenoids for the starter and didn't use the heavy cables to the switch.

[JC 1965 1,530]

That looks like switch # 8362 if it is, the terminals are marked B (battery) M (magneto) S (starter) R (rectifier) L ( lights and other accessory). Large wire from B terminal goes to positive side of battery. Large wire from S terminal goes to starter. Wire from M terminal goes to coil. Wire from R terminal goes to center connector on rectifier. Wire from L terminal is for accessories lights etc. The negative battery cable goes to ground somewhere on tractor ( frame etc. ) I don't know if you can get this switch from NAPA but you can get it from Toro and Parts Tree. You might get a used one on E-bay. Hope this helps. :thumbs2:

[rockinhorse 45]

Jerry & Paul The engine is off of a charger. I went to a local toro dealer today he could'nt find a switch. He talked like the switch has a solenoid in it . The 1 big wire went to starter. Guess i always with the odd balls. Next time i will take more pics and make drawings.

[KATO 115]

That is the same switch as my 70 raider. it is available from Toro dealers ,about $48.00 U.S.

[Trouty56 565]

Well you could get a magneto switch at Napa and put a solenoid on it if all else fails. Maybe 35 bucks.

sent via mobile....

[Save Old Iron 1,565]

He talked like the switch has a solenoid in it .

Karl,

The ignition switch does not actually contain a solenoid but with heavier duty contacts than the average ignition switch, the 8362 will function AS A SOLENOID WOULD - passing the large starter current thru the switch body instead of having the ignition switch trigger a starter solenoid.

I agree with Trouty - purchase a less expensive switch and use the remaining $$$ to but a starter solenoid and two extra starter cables. It a much more RELIABLE setup and will last far longer.

[rockinhorse 45]

Save Old Iron Would you have a couple of pictures of how this is wired -up. I'm not the best at understanding wiring but pictures make it a lot easier. If this were you guys tractor would you go ahead and convert engine over to points? I know it might be a little more money .

thanks for all your help Karl

[Trouty56 565]

SOI will probably have some cool pics (he is good at that) but it is sort of the same....

The + battery lead goes to the solenoid along with the wire from the B terminal at the switch and the rectifier DC wire

The other side of the solenoid goes to the starter.

The ground goes to the G terminal

The magneto goes to the M terminal

The S terminal goes to the middle post of the solenoid.

L terminal is lights.

I changed this a bit...I looked at a magneto switch from NAPA and the wiring for a Charger 9 that has a Techy solid state ignition.

[Save Old Iron 1,565]

If you go with conversion to points, use this wiring for the starter relay and ignition

If you intend to stay with a magneto ignition, I will sketch up another diagram later this evening.

[Coadster32 793]

If you intend to stay with a magneto ignition, I will sketch up another diagram later this evening.

Yeah.yeah...magnito picture...yeah.yeah....

[JC 1965 1,530]

rockinhorse, If you decide to convert over to points use the wiring diagram that SOI provided for you and use ignition switch #103990. I converted my 1971 raider over to points several years ago and it runs much better. Check with the venders here on RED SQUARE to see if they have the parts you need. Might save you some money and give them the business. Hope this helps. :thumbs2:

[rockinhorse 45]

save old iron in your pic you show only 1 wire to rectifier . On breakerless there were 3 wires to rectifier 2 came from behind flywheel i do not use these now? I will not use any wires from behind flywheel right ? The plug on block has to be knocked inwards right? Use a small punch ? I bought a new oil pan gasket today. The raider frame i have does not have a hole for amp gauge is gauge a good idea? I can get hole saw to cut out if it need one. You showed in your diagram a safety switch ? do you mean fuse block? THis is all new to me but i am excited to get started and see it work.

[Trouty56 565]

There should be 3 wires coming from the engine....2 of them still go to the rectifier (the AC wires) for charging but the other one that would have been the magneto wire is not used in the point setup.

[Save Old Iron 1,565]

Karl,

all great questions - someone is paying attention!!

Trouty is correct. The stator wires from the engine are connected to the AC terminals on the regulator/ rectifier. Orientation is not important - either stator wire can go to either AC terminal.

The diagram I created makes some basic assumptions. One assumption is the reader understands the ground connections are not shown for various parts connected to the chassis or engine block. Starter, points, condenser and even the battery are all shown without ground wires or connections. These are all eliminated from the diagram to keep visual "clutter" to a minimum. The same is true for the AC connections to the regulator/ rectifier.

Backing up a few steps, have you decided on the ignition system yet - points or magneto ?

Your answer will determine which ignition switch you will need to purchase. As a reminder

NEVER CONNECT THE MAGNETO WIRE TO A 12 VOLT POWER SOURCE - DOING SO WILL DESTROY THE MAGNETO COIL

To address your other questions

The plug on block has to be knocked inwards right? Use a small punch ? I bought a new oil pan gasket today

Yes, the plug is similar to a thin steel freeze plug seen on automotive engine blocks. It will fall into the engine and into the oil pan. You have an oil pan gasket, remove the oil pan, clean it and retrieve the plug. While inside the engine, check for loose balance gears (search for the phrase balance gears to find previous posts relating to loose / wobbly gears).

The raider frame i have does not have a hole for amp gauge is gauge a good idea? I can get hole saw to cut out if it need one

My opinion is a gauge is only good if you know how to interpret its reading. I have run tractors for years without a gauge and never missed having one. Most tractors do not have a gas gauge and no one misses those. Folks who have amp gauges hear arguments stating a voltmeter is better. Folks who have volt meters rarely know how to interpret their readings! The folks who argue you should have both are on the right track.

If you remember to perform a routine check of electrolyte level in the battery, save the price of a meter and put it toward your next battery purchase a few years from now.

FYI - should you decide to pursue installing a gauge, a hole saw would be the way to go to drill out the dash tower or shifter panel.

You showed in your diagram a safety switch ? do you mean fuse block?

The safety switches in depicted in the diagram are generic representations of the neutral safety switches or PTO safety switches commonly found on newer tractors. They represent the real world switches or relays that would interrupt power to both the ignition system or the start system to protect the operator. The exact wiring for your switches - if indeed you tractor has /had them - will be particular to your model of tractor. We can cross that bridge when we get there. Let us know what model TRACTOR you are working on and we can advise you in more detail on what safety features would be present.

As far as fuse blocks / holders are concerned, those are simple additions to any wiring. Again, let us know what model tractor you have and recommendations can be made. My diagram did not include fuses for the sake of visual clarity in showing just the major functions of the electrical system. I'll be happy to update additional diagrams to include these additional levels of detail. We also need to get you an operators manual for your particular model. A wiring schematic would be included in that documentation.

THis is all new to me but i am excited to get started and see it work.

I can say that we are excited to be able to help you out on your journey into a new hobby.

Great questions - keep them coming.

[rockinhorse 45]

Save Old Iron OK 1st model of tractor ? It's a johnny case tractor frame and front sheet metal is raider 12 1969, motor is out of a charger 12 mid 70's, front axle 704, 6 spd transaxle, , foot rests, tool box, fenders, seat spring from 704, rear tires are 27.5 / 10 / 15 slicks car tires. It's going to be a rat tractor. Going with the points system. I got the oil gasket , points, condenser, points cover (used), screws, coil ,and a key switch like the 1 showed in diagram. What gauge wire should i use ?

[Save Old Iron 1,565]

What gauge wire should i use ?

Head to Ebay and search for "14awg marine primary wire"

Gregs Marine supplies top quality marine grade wire. You buy a total of 100 feet of wire in any combination of colors and lengths. He allows you to pick out a few feet of each color and charges you the same price as if you just purchased one roll of a single color.

Grab a ruler to approximate how many feet of each color you will need to accomplish your wiring scheme. Order from Gregs and the wire will show up in a few days.

[Save Old Iron 1,565]

Karl,

based on your PM last night, (no lights and no ammeter) this is how you would be configured.

The wire from the battery to the "B" terminal still needs to be in place even without an ammeter. The wire will support charge current from the stator / regulator unit thru the ignition switch back to the battery.

[rockinhorse 45]

Just want to thank everbody who helped me with my wiring project. The tractor is done for the most part need a few cosmetic things done . A big thank you to SAVE OLD IRON the tractor has a lot more spark now, INDY W/H ( marshall ) for the parts, MARTIN for the exhaust port help, and KELLY for the advise on the brakes. Here are some pics of the tractor again thanks for all your help.

Karl

[Trouty56 565]

Holy chitski!!!! Nice...I mean really nice!!!!!

[Foozerush 40]

Man does that thing scream ATTITUDE!!! Man hat's off to you.... one great looking tractor there... BRAVO!!!!

[Save Old Iron 1,565]

Very stealthy

glad I could be of assistance :handgestures-thumbupright:

[JC 1965 1,530]

Wow !!!! That tractor looks great. Glad you Got it done. Are you glad you went with the points setup ? Any way it looks really good !! :thumbs2:

[KATO 115]

AWESOME !!!!!!!!!!