Thinking of giving up rebuilding my two Wheelhorse tractors

[EdG. 5]

Well for some time I have been trying to rebuild two Wheelhorses, one 1969 Charger 12 and one 1970 Electro.

Both have the Sundstrand hydro's and both transmissions are going out. The problem is I can't get any new replacement

parts for the Sundstrand and can't get any new bearings for rear axles or rear ends, every time I go to Toro they say "discontinued, sorry".

Even the bearing store can't get the bearings that I need for the rear axle or rear ends.

I got a third used Sundstrand and even it has problems.

I just can't seem to rebuild these old tractors to my desired quality level, I am getting quite frustrated.

It takes more than a pretty paint job to rebuild these old tractors and I am about ready to give up.

I already have a ton of money invested in the rebuild of both of these tractors, but they are no good if they won't work.

I just can't get good parts.

Am I the only one who is frustrated with rebuilding?

[neil 2,409]

Hang on in there EdG im sure someone will chime in to help and maybe give you the information you need

I know Mark (meadowfield) from UK open up his Sundstrand on his gt14 a few weeks ago and gave it an overhaul. maybeyou could have a look at his thread to see what work he did to see if it was similar problems to yours.

Im not sure that they are the same transmission for each model but they cant be too far apart.

As a last restort could you not put a 3 of 6 speed trans in , again im not too familiar with the different transmissions.

[bowtiebutler956 650]

Don't give up EdG., I'm sure someone here can help you. Right Guys?

Matt :flags-texas:

[Martin 2,131]

yes, like the others have said, dont give up.

your not going through anything that hasnt been experienced by others before. we all have those times when nothing seems to go right. just hang in there.

as far as the parts you need to replace, if you could be specific on what you need maybe somebody can help...

post up the part numbers you are looking for and im sure somebody can point you in the right direction. hey, even i might be able to help you.

i will do some looking for bearings that you mention, just to see if i can help a little. like i said if you could post part numbers of what you are looking for that would help. i havent had one bearing that i was looking for not be available at least somewhere. some of them arent available new, but good used ones can be substituted.

this place ( ) has really all the connections you should need.......

please dont give up, the tractors need you...... :thumbs:

[MarkPalmer 81]

Keep in mind that Sundstrand made hydro transaxles for a LOT of brands of tractors, Cub Cadet (in the IH days) was a big user of them. Although the outer casings for other brands of tractors will look different, I'm sure many of the Sundstrand transaxle internals such as bearings will be the same amongst various tractor makes and models and the parts for the other brands might still be available new or can be hacked from used transaxles. I know the feeling of desparation very well, and in order to follow through on a project sometimes you have to be creative. Also, Sundstrand hydros are VERY durable. A lot of times perceived failures are due to improper or worn linkage adjustments rather than internal problems with the pump or transaxle.

-Mark-

[SMITTY 23]

Don't give up. Give Jim a call

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/links/link/36-jims-repairs/

Smitty

[stevasaurus 22,682]

Ed, are you the guy that I am bringing back an Eaton trans for from the Penn show from Squonk??

[Martin 2,131]

not sure what bearings you need, but i went to the 65-73 sundstrand ipl and got a few numbers for bearings and seals.

im going to post up the wh numbers and will then come back in fill in the cross references to what you need to purchase from bearing houses. ive never done a rebuild on a hydro, but the unidrives use torrington bearings and its just a matter of ordering the torrington number through some place like motion industries etc.

if anybody has any numbers they want to add, post away. or any other info......

heres what bearings and seals i found on the ipl.

1532 1" needle bearing.................................... torrington m-16121 brg

1533 1 1/2" ball bearing.................................... nla (mike - racinfool40 or one of the other trans guys might have some of these)

9416 1 1/8" needle bearing...............................torrington b-1816 brg

6449 1 1/8" seal................................................ skf 11124

5959 1/2" brake seal......................................... skf 4911

5960 1" needle bearing.....................................nla ( same scenario as 1533- somebody here may have some good used ones)-

Torrington M-1681 or INA BCE168 if 1/2" wide or

Torrington M-16101 if 5/8" wide. (thanks sorekiwi)

this is assuming that we are talking about the same trans here for these part numbers, and that you need to replace all of them, the 1533 arent usually needing replacing like the others, and the 5960 maybe the same. the torringtons and the seals can be purchased through motion industries ( or another bearing house) for not much money- still less than if you could get them through toro.....

ive got seals through napa before as well.........

and theres still the great bunch of guys here with the good used spares to help as well......

most of the time some good info can be had just by searching the part number on the forum and see what comes up. 9 times out of 10 theres already posts from members dealing with the same situation as yourself........

[Rooster 191]

Looky there Ed, little over an hour and how much help you got....

No reason to be frustrated bud!

If you are a perfectionist like me, you have to be patient.

It takes time and perseverance to get one "right".

Anytime you are working with out of production items there are going to be times when you have to get creative!

Just because it came that way doesn't mean it has to go back that way!

[neil 2,409]

this place is amazing , lets hope Ed desides to carry on , like rooster says in just over a hour Ed has got this much interest so lets see if we can solve his transmission problem

[squonk 41,008]

Ed, are you the guy that I am bringing back an Eaton trans for from the Penn show from Squonk??

Yes it is! Save a spot in the front seat for it! :ychain:

[546cowboy 301]

Ed I just looked on Yahoo maps and it says you are about 120 miles from me. I have a C-125 parts tractor that has a good Sunstrand with the rear end in it. If you want it email me at jrranch2@hotmail.com I'm sure we can make a deal.

[sorekiwi 761]

I'm sorry if I have missed your pleas for help Ed, several years ago I read probably every thread posted on this site, these days its so busy here that there are many posts that I miss.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I have been inside a few transmissions and may be able to help. Post up what you need help with and I'm sure someone can help.

At this moment this is what I have sitting in my shop:

Its a hydro from a 1276 sitting there waiting for me to find my round 'tuit. I have a small pile of new bearings sitting on the bench...

[stevasaurus 22,682]

Cool, Ed...looking forward to meeting you...send me a PM whenever you want to come up and get this. :)

[neil 2,409]

http://www.stripmine...ndstrand_90.pdf

hope this manual may be of some use

[Martin 2,131]

I'm sorry if I have missed your pleas for help Ed, several years ago I read probably every thread posted on this site, these days its so busy here that there are many posts that I miss.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I have been inside a few transmissions and may be able to help. Post up what you need help with and I'm sure someone can help.

At this moment this is what I have sitting in my shop:

Its a hydro from a 1276 sitting there waiting for me to find my round 'tuit. I have a small pile of new bearings sitting on the bench...

hey kiwi, thats a nice little fixture for the trans..... :thumbs:

[sorekiwi 761]

hey kiwi, thats a nice little fixture for the trans.....

Its a little less hillbilly than the old fixture (which was a hole in the bench for the axle to stick through!!) Its typical of my projects lately, about 90% finished.

[Martin 2,131]

hey i can beat that for hillbilly. how about a plastic 5 gallon bucket, upside down with a hole in the bottom.....

[sorekiwi 761]

5960 1" needle bearing.....................................nla ( same scenario as 1533- somebody here may have some good used ones)

For the 5960 you can use the Torrington M-1681 or INA BCE168. !" ID, I.250" OD, .5" wide. Thats what I had in my trans so thats whats going back in. If the bearing in your transmission is 5/8" wide then use Torrington M-16101.

[Martin 2,131]

5960 1" needle bearing.....................................nla ( same scenario as 1533- somebody here may have some good used ones)

For the 5960 you can use the Torrington M-1681 or INA BCE168. !" ID, I.250" OD, .5" wide. Thats what I had in my trans so thats whats going back in. If the bearing in your transmission is 5/8" wide then use Torrington M-16101.

updated list posted earlier in this thread........

[wingrider 21]

Hey Ed I was reading all about your problems, and I just read that 546Cowboy may have some parts you could use. I was thinking since I live about half way between you and the Cowboy

I could probably help getting the parts to you. I go past Lexington about every other weekend on my way to Bloomington-Normal to see my kids there so if you need help just holler. By the way hows that mid mount blade project coming.

Let me know Wingrider

[EdG. 5]

Thanks to everybody for the encouragement and tips/advice.

What I know about the bearings that I need is:

Torrington part number M-1681. This is a shorter needle bearing that has a closed cap on one end, there is only one

of these in my rear end. (the other needle bearings that are a little wider and there are 3 of them in my rear end but I

was able to get some off-brand replacements that look like they will fit).

and

Nice, part number 7439. This is the large ball bearing for the inner axle, 1.5" ID x 2.5" OD x .500" thick.

Torro is discontinued and Motion Industries says that they can not get this or the Torrington M-1681.

Can no longer get the .500" wide 1.125" dia. axle seals. I was told to try two .256" wide seals on both ends. I guess I will try that.

Can no longer get the gasket between the hydo pump and rear end.

Other problems that I have is the Sundstrand hydro motor. I don't know what this part is called but the shop that I took it to

said that there was not supposed to have this groove that has been worn into it. He says "can't get that part".

The groove looks to be about .030/.035" deep.

He also said this part is not to have this groove in it, can't get this part either.

Groove looks to be .020/.025" deep.

I think what has happened to this pump motor is the parking brake paw inside was completely worn away, like someone had

been pulling the parking brake while tractor was in motion and there were a lot of metal shavings in the rear end that went

through the pump system and put these grooves in there.

The gasket I need looks like this.

And the seals that I have been told to try look like this.

He also said to install the first one backwards and the outer one as normal, just like I have in the picture.

Has anyone heard of doing it this way?

Ed

[Martin 2,131]

on the axle seals, i think one seal would be adequate. i would only use two if the axle was worn from where the original seal was. if you were going to install two, best way to install is both the same way as per original. installing one of those seals backwards would be very hard without damaging it and the seal wouldnt work as intended. its designed to go in the normal way, the lip on the seal is shaped to seal on the inside more.

as far as the bearings go, maybe try and find some good used for the nla ones.

i cant really comment much on the motor. theres a few threads of late on here about rebuilding, all i can suggest is to do some reading and maybe somebody here can come to the rescue again with hard to obtain parts.

hang in there, im sure enough members here can get you going in the right direction.....

[sorekiwi 761]

Torrington part number M-1681. This is a shorter needle bearing that has a closed cap on one end, there is only one

of these in my rear end. (the other needle bearings that are a little wider and there are 3 of them in my rear end but I

was able to get some off-brand replacements that look like they will fit).

You can use an INA brand BCE-168. Here is a link to one: http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/B007D2U91I

Nice, part number 7439. This is the large ball bearing for the inner axle, 1.5" ID x 2.5" OD x .500" thick.

Torro is discontinued and Motion Industries says that they can not get this or the Torrington M-1681.

This is the 1533 bearing that Martin was talking about earlier. This is the only bearing that I havent ever found anywhere except Toro, and apparently recently became NLA. I bet there are still some sitting on shelves in dealers, at $70 apiece they probably werent a big seller.

Quite often they can be reused, or salvaged out of another gearbox. The stick shift boxes used this same bearing, so there should be some useable "pre-loved" bearings around if yours are no good.

Can no longer get the .500" wide 1.125" dia. axle seals. I was told to try two .256" wide seals on both ends. I guess I will try that.

I'll try to find a part # for an alternative, I'm sure I've got these from Napa before.

Can no longer get the gasket between the hydo pump and rear end.

I just make my own, your local autoparts store should be able to sell you a sheet of gasket paper. Measure the thickness of your old gasket so you can get the right thickness paper.

Sorry I can help with the pump stuff at all, I've never been inside one, and know nothing about them. There has been a recent thread about rebuilding a D series pump.

[SkyhawkTL 19]

Hang in there....remember, these rebuilds are supposed to be fun. Just one step at a time; and you can do anything. I'm sure the parts are out there, and there are all kind of talents in this group. Two thoughts.....pictures....and don't use those other two colors.