New tractors vs. old. . . some thoughts

[IthacaJeff 151]

Hi all:

Last week a colleague asked for advice on buying a new mower for his 1 -1.5 ac yard, given about $1500. Well, I gave him the rundown on old tractors vs. new and what he could get for his $1500, and I would without hesitation buy a WH, Simplicity, or for only mowing a Ferris, Scag or Exmark (the brands common around here). Other than that he should hit one of the independent dealer and buy the tractor there rather than the non-servicing Lowes & HD. (Which would be Husqvarna, Simplicity, JD). I told him all about the evils of MTD and what products actually were MTD.

So he off and buys a 100 series JD (at least he bought it at the dealer) for $1900. 20 something horsepower, which got me to thinking why so much hp for a 48" deck and no ground-engaging attachment capability. Now, I know that hp is now calculated a bit different than in the old days, but my 310-8 (Magnum 10 hp) can run a tiller, pull a single bottom plow with no troubles, pull a way-overloaded cart, and in a pinch can run a 48" deck (slowly, but it can).

So here is the question for discussion. How can I get away with 10 hp and do what I can do? Do you think there would be a market for a smaller tractor (in size and hp) with ground engaging capabilities?

(I realize this discussion may be better in a different category, but my WH did prompt it.)

Jeff

[stevasaurus 23,521]

Jeff, I think it is all about the difference between the lower compression Kohlers and the newer high compression stuff. Some guys want to mow their yards in 1/2 hour and some guys enjoy riding around their yards all day. The attachments for the Wheel Horse make it the top dude in my opinion. Your horse can climb a tree, his Deere can run into it. :) :)

[Pollack Pete 2,273]

I've been saying the same thing about this horsepower issue.I use a 23.5 hp Troy-Bilt to mow my mothers lawn.I have a WH B-80 that I sometimes use for my lawn.The 8 horse WH will do circles aorund her much newer 23.5 horse Troy-Bilt.My 10's,12's,14's,16's and 20 horse Wheel Horse,absolutely NO comparrison.I figure,to build something today as good as my 20 something year old 520-H would cost at least 10 grand.Maybe more.

[SousaKerry 503]

Bigger numbers sell, If you were buying new and did not know a thing about anything and were looking at brand A vs brand B. Brand A has 23hp and Brand B has 24hp for the same money what would you buy? Put an inefficient transmission with hydro cruise control (isn't that what WH came up with 35 years ago with the lever?) that sucks up the power and has an internal dump valve so it will not develop enough torque to hurt itself. Oh and make sure it has a thin little body between your feet so no-one will trip trying to get out of the seat. Don't dare let the thing mow in reverse so that you wont run over junior who doesn't have the sense to get out of the way, don't forget the cup holder and sun shade.

Oh and you know that nice plastic hood will never rust.

As a wise man once said "There is a sucker born every minute"

[WH520 17]

A few years ago I bought a 1997 Toro 265-6 with a 15hp Kohler Command and 42" deck. I figured it would keep some hours off the 518 and would have parts more readily available should something happen. The motor and 6 speed transmission worked very well. It would mow about everything my 518 will but it was too flimsy for my liking. You would constantly feel it flexing when going over uneven ground. The hood would come unlatched sometimes because of the flexing. I had it for a year and got rid of it. Figured it's better to stick with the older machines and keep them going.

[kpinnc 16,249]

Don't forget that aluminum blocks give up some torque due to flex as well. Older cast iron blocks are not nearly as affected by such things.

On the other hand, I did not know that hp was calculated differently now from what it was in years past. I would like to hear more on the subject.

[bean 85]

Bigger numbers sell,

that is true. I was into motorcycles for a long time and they are the same way. 750cc was considered a large motorcycle not that long ago. then cruisers went to 1100cc, then 1500cc, and now 2000cc+. last years greatest thing is obsolete this year.

it actually takes a lot more power to turn a 60" mulching deck, than to pull a moldboard plow. but it takes an incredibly strong transmission to use ground-engaging equipment. I always wonder about those flimsy looking aluminum transmissions with a 20hp engine, but really, all they are doing is pushing the deck around the yard.

[Tim 97]

bean, good point, what always stuck with me was going to a show in the fall called the Big E in Springfield Ma. Hallamore, a national rigging company had a display where they had restored tractor trailer trucks from the 20's and 30's. the engines were about 50 hp or something silly low. they would move 40-60k lbs. but they would not move them fast. it's all about gearing. a WH dealer told me the largest consumer of HP is a mowing deck. a FEL does not take alot of power, your running a small hydraulic pump. but you better have the framework to support it.

[WH252-H 4]

This HP thing drives me crazy! I have a resto project 1967 IH CC model 71. It came from the factory with a "7 HP " engine that would operate a 36" deck or 36" blade or belly blade or front brush or a tiller or a 48" sickle bar or many other attachments. Now your lucky if you can get a "7 HP" engine to work for a push mower. Makes me crazy!

Also look at all the 10 and 12 HP tractors that use to have front loaders and plows.

[roscoemi 245]

In the old days, horse power was advertised minus power robbing accessories. Now it is supposed to reflect what is generated at the flywheel as installed. None of the manufacturers want to agree on a set of standards as this will rob them of their ability to give a spec on a motor that outperforms the competitor in a certail set of conditions, and not state them while making them look like the big dog, but has no value in the real world. Horsepower numbers impress, but torque and gearing do the work.

[zeedubbya 18]

I think it boils down to two things--perception and compensation. Perception because horsepower is a kind of measure that people generally don't understand, but is used as a gauge of power in our world today. More horsepower has to equate to better performance. This was even prevalent when the term horsepower came to be--it was a way to market steam engines based on their relationship with how much work a horse could do? Isn't that kind of silly sounding? Really, estimating how much work an animal can do and comparing it to a machine? IMO horsepower is a very poor measurement of power, but it sounded good then and sounds good today.

Also compensation is the other aspect. A lot of today's tractors compensate for badly designed machinery with horsepower. It's hard to blame the manufacturers for cutting corners in areas that the general consumer doesn't care about. What sells more tractors you think? If you put two tractors side by side and touted one as having a lifetime warranty and a 12 horsepowe motor and one with 30 horse and a 6 month warranty--the 30 would sell 5:1 I bet. It's unfortunate but reality. Power sells!! No one tells their neighbor about the great transmission their tractor has--but you better believe hosepower is being talked about right now!

[kloe0699 12]

My neighbor has a 20 something horse craftsman. It won't pull his little trailer full of wood outta his back revine. So when it's firewood time I take my '73 10hp over and it has no issues doing it? Some day I am gonna blow his mind and let him use the C-175.. After that he will be searching cl for one! :ychain:

[kloe0699 12]

Don't forget that aluminum blocks give up some torque due to flex as well. Older cast iron blocks are not nearly as affected by such things.

On the other hand, I did not know that hp was calculated differently now from what it was in years past. I would like to hear more on the subject.

I had to dig for that one... I wanted to re-visit it anyway! :thumbs:

[MaineDad 87]

Another thing - We are a disposable society now. People don't want to or know how to fix and maintain equipment like we used too. If something breaks, throw it away and buy another one on the store credit card. The American way!

[tomtractor 71]

I just sold my Toro 12 hp 32 inch cut lawn tractor and purchased a WH C-125 (to cut grass). The difference is huge. Pulling a wagon with weight the WH C-125 didn't flinch. The 12 hp toro would have strained. I did't know selling the newer tractor and purchasing an older tractor was smart. I wanted a tractor that would last my lifetime. The toro just seemed flimsy and temporary. I am very happy so far with the switch.

[Audioshot 2]

There was some sort of class action lawsuit years ago that the lawnmower manufactures were inflating the actual HP numbers. I think that is the reason they now only list the displacement instead of the HP.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/04/lawnmower_settlement.html

[WH252-H 4]

There was some sort of class action lawsuit years ago that the lawnmower manufactures were inflating the actual HP numbers. I think that is the reason they now only list the displacement instead of the HP.

http://www.consumera...settlement.html

In the article it states they agreeded on a measuring standard. Does anyone know what that is?

[littleredrider 409]

It cracks me up whenever I go to Home Depot or similar store and see the mowers there. Most of the push mowers are 6hp and above. Funny, but a lawn ranger has a 6 horse and powers a tranny. Now the we all know what a power house that tucky has, but it mowed and pushed the tractor without too much trouble. Now I have a freebie push mower that has a 6.75 horse engine on it. Get it in too tall a grass, it bogs down and almost stalls out.

I always tell people of the fact that if these old WH's are still here has got to tell you about their strength and reliability. Guy who bought my 1055 had a 2-3 year old something POS and the deck rotted out. I'm not old, but I'm old school....

[Don1977 605]

Bigger numbers sell, If you were buying new and did not know a thing about anything and were looking at brand A vs brand B. Brand A has 23hp and Brand B has 24hp for the same money what would you buy? Put an inefficient transmission with hydro cruise control (isn't that what WH came up with 35 years ago with the lever?) that sucks up the power and has an internal dump valve so it will not develop enough torque to hurt itself. Oh and make sure it has a thin little body between your feet so no-one will trip trying to get out of the seat. Don't dare let the thing mow in reverse so that you wont run over junior who doesn't have the sense to get out of the way, don't forget the cup holder and sun shade.

Oh and you know that nice plastic hood will never rust.

As a wise man once said "There is a sucker born every minute"

The old Wheel Horse Dealer I bought my C-120 from 35 years ago, had a saying he use a lot. "The road to hell is paved with plastic."

[bean 85]

my Grandfather farmed several hundred acres with 2 ford 8n's and a ford 9n. he grew tobacco, corn, and they had a personal garden that must have been a couple of acres. they canned all summer and had enough canned food put up for 10yrs at all times.

those fords were roughly 20hp +/-. the amazing thing is that He had rebuilt one 8n back in the 70s and another family member is still cutting grass with it today. as far as I know, they are all still going. the 9n is pushing 75 yrs old. and they were worked hard for decades. I'm guessing that a wheel horse will also last 75+ yrs, if maintained properly

[whc160 80]

Horse power does not do the work. It is the torque that does the work. I used to drive a 1989 Mack R model that only had a 350 hp & it would pull as good as a 425 hp Cat engine just slower. It was just the way the torque rise of those old Mack's worked. Got them in the right gear & they would just sit there at 1200 rpm & pull.

[Keith 21]

My father has a 18 HP vertical shaft Sears hydrostatic, similar to most of the popular lawn brands. The motor threw a rod when someone used it without checking the oil. A new 21 HP motor was only about $550 from Northern Tool. It bolted in and had exactly the same connectors. If the Sears transmission holds up it still won't be so bad. Maintenance makes a big difference. I think most of the users of these machines don't pay much attention to them. They treat them like an appliance. Sears does not recommend changing the transmission oil but from what I hear that ought to be changed now and then. The idea of low maintenance is promoted by the marketing literature. You are kind of an exception if you a careful with these matters. I visited Sears a few days ago and noticed that the store stocked two garden tractors rated for ground engaging work. Both had 26 HP motors, the lower priced model was $2,700. The more sturdy model had a $5,700 price tag. That is a major price difference for the same horsepower rating. The more costly model boasted a "professional grade" drive train. Again both were 26 HP tractors. Were a 26 HP Wheel Horse built today it might be a a $7,500+ tractor and relatively few would be sold for residential use.

[IthacaJeff 151]

So, the thought is that hp is only a marketing thing, along with some differences in the engines that make a

20hp B&S less torquey than my 10 hp Kohler Magnum. It still seems to me that a true garden tractor,

a stout little machine with ground engaging capabilities, 10-12 hp, could have a market if sold for $2K

or less.

Jeff

[boovuc 1,090]

This thread reminds me of a guy who needed his shed moved. (We told him it was too close to his property line but he placed it there anyway). After I told him we cold move it by putting logs and boards under it, he said he didn't know anyone who had a farm tractor or backhoe that would do the job. His other neighbor with a "newer" John Deere said his "garden tractor" would move it. After all it had a 20+HP motor and above all, it was a John Deere.

Long story short, it would barely budge it and was really straining his "mower" so he said we needed a bigger machine. I came over with my C-175 and moved it 15 feet in less than a minute with 4 guys picking up the logs and boards from the back of the shed and placing them in the front. I used third gear low range. The shed was about a 12' by 12' wooden Amish built shed that was only a month old. Used chains bolted to the back of the floor boards. This was with my tractor suffering from a dirty carb at the time.

The "newer" John Deere of my neighbors is an MTD. An older JD would have pulled that shed. I know for a fact that the older K series Kohler powered Sears Suburbans and GT's with the three-point setups would have done it as well. HP ratings are really scewed but regardless of what you have, you need to match whatever powerplant you use to a tranny that can transfer that power to the ground without (A), being too powerful that it does nothing but spin or wheelie, ( robs all your power leaving you with a tractor that works too hard all the time or © a machine that is perfect for one task and not for much of anything else.

Whenever someone belittles my tractors and praise their HP ratings, I just send them an email with links to the articles some good folks put up earlier on this thread then ask them if they think their new tractor will be around in 25, 35 or 45 years from now without mothballing it.

[Challenger 27]

I've never tried to pull anything as large and heavy as a shed with my 522xi. Do you think it could do it? I'm just curious as I kind of consider the 5xi tractors as a transition between Old and New.

- Challenger