K341 Knock ?

[JoeMonag 1]

I had my K341 from my 416-8 rebuilt last year and used it all winter to blow snow. I had the crank turned, and the rod machined to accept clevite bearings onto the crank. It hasn't got much use this winter. In the spring I remove the two stage and install a Johnny Bucket.

I noticed before I installed the two stage in November, when I idled down from a high throttle, that I get a slight knock.The engine runs strong and smoothe, and seems to have plenty of power. I had the tractor out this week end to run for a while, and check the tires, and I noticed the same thing when I idled down.

Does any one have any suggestions for diagnosing the noise I hear, short of removing the engine, separating it from the oil pan, and physically checking the rod and cap for play? My engine re-builder thinks the clevite bearings may have some slop in them, from a possible over -bore of the rod.

Thanks for any an all replies about K341 knock noises.

Joe in Norton,MA

[Kelly 1,029]

With out being there it is hard to say, BUT did you reinstall the balance gears? I've heard from others they can make a knocking sound like a rod, and they can also put a big hole in the block when they let go, many people leave them out during a rebuild.

[JoeMonag 1]

Good question, I have to ask my engine rebuilder. Joe

[wheelhorsetroy 4]

Hi Joe, thats almost exactly how mine sounded, loose rod cap. i wish i had pulled mine down before it turned into a clatter, money down the drain....

it ran fine right up to that point also.

[JoeMonag 1]

Troy were the cap bolts loose, or was there play between the cap and rod?

Joe

[whc160 74]

The valves on my k341 rattle when i idle it down. Just have not taken time to adjust them. Maybe some thing to look at.

[Tap53 57]

Just wondering if you had the cylinder bored w/ new piston or just honed and rings.?

[wheelhorsetroy 4]

joe, one side was completely off and the other side very loose. i assume they started loose and knocked, and then it came apart and went klack klack klack.. :)

[JoeMonag 1]

I had the cylinder bored, and a new piston rod and rings were installed. Engine has about 48 hours on it.

I went out tonight and pulled the plug onthe K341 and turned the engine over by hand as I moved the fly wheel screen backand forth, I could here a slight klink noise. I then did the same on the M-10 on my 310,and didn't here the klink sound. The M-10 was very easy to turn over with or with out the plug installed, which I attribute to the ACR, or maybe I need rings. The K341 had good compression even with the plug removed.

Does the klink noise sounds like a loose rod? Do yo think if I am careful I could use the pan gasket after I remove the pan to inspect the rod and crank? I'm thinking about pulling the engine on Saturday and inspecting the rod to crank play. And can I reach in and check the balance gears, wit the crank in place? Joe

pardon me I meant to say "hear" not "here" Joe

[can whlvr 993]

i would be looking into it before a catostophic failure,probally gonna need a new gasket,do you get ant warranty from the engine builder

[JoeMonag 1]

I pulle the oil pan off today. The cap,rod and crank are fine. The balance gears are loose as a goose. With some help and advise from Brian Miler, I am going to remove the gears. I am certain this was the noise, of a slight knock or rattle I heard. I can't belive my engine rebuilder didn't see this issue, as the engine only has 45 hours since the rebuild. I report back after I do the gear -ectomy, and get the engine back onthe416. Joe

[Kelly 1,029]

At least you found it before it put a window in the block.

[bowtiebutler956 650]

That's great you found the problem, and it didn't cause any major problems. You didn't need those gears anyway. Good Luck

Matt :flags-texas:

[tgranthamfd 29]

This may be a dumb question but, how do you get the gears off of one that still has them on? Just pull the engine, take the pan off, and pop them off? I have a couple of Kohlers that are in need of a rebuild and I have never done one, I know my way around engines, though. Knocking sound and a little smoke, could that be the gears?

[Martin 2,131]

those gears are a pain in the rear to remove. i managed to do a k301 with the crank still in, but there is more room around the counterweights on a k301 crank than some of the others. the gear furthest away from the crank gear wasnt that bad, but the other one took quite a bit of brainstorming to get it out. once you look in there you will see what i mean.

ive pulled them on k241s and a k321 but cranks were moved at least a little sideways by removing the bearing plate bolts. if your lucky you might get away with doing it this way without tearing the end plate shim material.

also, unless you have a perfectly shaped tool to remove those circlips, or snap rings, they will really test your patience.

still worth the hassle though, and if they are loose, just taking care of a problem waiting to happen.

and hopefully the noise a well.............

[can whlvr 993]

as to the question about knocking and smoking,yes to the knock,i would say no to the smoke,they dont have anything to do with the rings or valve seats,which is where most problems occur with smoking

[JoeMonag 1]

Yes you need a good pair of snap ring pliers, and it still takes a few tries. I bought a set of 8" channel lock brand with both straight and 90 degree tips, for about $30.00

I easily remove the lower gear,spacer, and shims. But I don't seem to have the clearance to get the upper gear out due to a casting boss for the starter bolt.I wrote to Brian for advise. I think, I may have have to slide out the crank to di-engage the meshing gears. My engine is a K341 Spec # 71381. Does any one have any suggestions? Frustrated Joe in Norton, MA

[JoeMonag 1]

Got a note from Brian, I'll have to slide out the crank enough to de-mseh the gears. Joe

[Martin 2,131]

now that i think of it, that casting boss was what stopped me on the k321 and a k241 that i did. it wasnt just the crank counterweight. thanks for the frustrating memories...

i think i tried on one for at least 30 minutes before i just gave up and slid the crank a little sideways.

if you ever do a k301 because of the counterweight shape, they are possible to get out because of the cut off counterweight. the boss is still there, its a little tight, but not impossible.

[larryandnell 3]

The best and easiest way is to remove them is with a hammer and punch. If ya hit em just right they will pop right out.

[can whlvr 993]

The best and easiest way is to remove them is with a hammer and punch. If ya hit em just right they will pop right out.

do you mean knock out the pin that holds them on the side of the block,and can you drive them back in with the crank there?

[larryandnell 3]

No I mean you use a punch or chisel to crack or break the balance gear in half then slide it off the pin. It is best to chisel it by the thinnest part of the gear.

[JoeMonag 1]

Well I brought the engine to a local shop, and their old time mechanic, pulled the head, removed the rod cap pushed the piston out, and slid the crank out to get the upper balance gear out.

The found the cause of the noise was all but one of the magnets on the inner side of the fly wheel were loose. They consulted with Toro,and they were told how to re- glue them in place. By the time the guy gets it together they figure it is gong to take a total of 5 hours labor @ $70.00 per hour, plus the glue and gaskets needed. I don't know why but they removed the carb., fuel pump, Valve gear cover, and breather cover.

I figure I am into this for about $400.00, if I am lucky. Last year the rebuild cost me a grand which included the crankshaft machining.

Lesson learned: 1. I should have had the balance gears removed during the rebuild, had I known about them then, 2. I should have brought the complete engine to them before I pulled the pan, for them to diagnose the rattle, which only required pulling the fly wheel.

Well at least the balance gears are out, so less chance of one flying thru the block. and my alternator should work better with the magnets in place.

So any body doing a rebuild, get those gears out while it is apart, and check the magnets on the fly wheel.

Sincerely, the reluctant mechanic soon to be the poor one......... Joe in Norton

[1975wheelhorsec160 0]

i just two days ago my c160 did it when it let loose it left a hole about the size of a soft ball