414 starting weirdness

[dsholler 54]

I have an 87 414-8 that I just got (My first tractor of any sort)..

I did the basics (charge the battery, change oil, clean air filter, etc. )

Now I think I have a strange electrical issues. Sometimes the motor cranks and will start. Other times I get nothing... zip, nada....

When I am in the state where I am getting nothing, the voltage meter does drop when I put the key in the crank position.

This happened to me when I was literally sitting on the tractor.. I cranked the engine a couple of times, forgetting that I had shut off the fuel. I got off, opened the fuel valve, got back on, and cranked it once more. It did not start.. I turned the key again and, nothing.

No amount of jiggling wires could seem to change the nothing, so I am going to have to get systematic about testing the integrity of them all. The other clue in this is that the last time I had the engine running, it did not shut off when you turned the key to the off position, so my guess is that there is some kind of ground issue.

However, I must confess that I just bought the first test meter I have ever owned, so I am not too skilled in this area..

Any and all help (or a systematic list of what I should do ) Would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and the started is relatively new (about 3 years old)

Dan

[smoreau 658]

Your tractor has some safety features that might be the issue. Seat switch, pto switch, clutch-brake switch, and neutral switch if its a auto. any one of these could be your issue Most common problems are the pto lever not all the way back and the seat switch.

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,337]

It kinda sounds like the ignition switch has crapped out if it wont shut off the machine.

Mike...........

[dsholler 54]

SMoreau - that is what I was thinking, but I did not do anything differently before and after I changed the shutoff valve, so either one of those switches is not working, or there is a continuity problem with the wiring.

Sparky.. I thought it might be the switch... I will test it.. I remember seeing a post in here someplace about what to do..

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

It kinda sounds like the ignition switch has crapped out if it wont shut off the machine.

Mike...........

agreed, plus it sounds like you have multiple problems

problems are intermittent

no kill function for the magneto

no cranking

all related to the ignition switch

or

a loose / corroded ignition switch harness connected to the back of the ignition switch.

[Wheel-N-It 2,969]

I had a problem with my 312 where sometimies it would not start, and the voltmeter was always at zero when this happened. Sure enough there was one (white ) wire connection (in the modular plug that plugs on the back of the key switch) that was loose, and a little tweaking on the spade that plugged in there , plus some dielectric grease fixed it.

[dsholler 54]

Well, in between playing with the kids and doing errands for the wife, I did manage to grab my jumper cables out of the back of the car and try a few things. It looks like the starter relay is bad, since If I jump it to the positive pole of the battery with the key off, I get the "click" but nothing else. As far as I can tell this means the relay is cooked. I did jump it to the positive pole on relay, and the starter moved, so I assume that it is OK. (and was wondering if I had cooked the relay further by doing so... )

So I think this warrants a new relay..although the one in there does not look that old, and I know the starter was changed three years ago (the shroud around the starter has lots of impact marks on it.. he must have be whacking that old starter with hammer for a long time.. )

I also noticed that when you flick the "Test" switch, you get a fast blinking light for the oil indicator.. but I cannot tell anything about this until I fix the starter relay. Now I just need to sort out the part numbers..

I am guessing the not shutting off is a different problem. but since right now I cannot get it to start easily, it does not seem so bad.

[can whlvr 993]

i think if that light blinks it means the oil sensor is saying your low on oil,at least with my 312 thats what it is,when i rebuilt it i had it upside down,when i tried to start the light blinked,i turned the sensor 1/2 turn and no more light blinking,check your oil level,or it could be a bad oil sensor,or the board isnt working correct,which is common,my 87 414 board started on fire once,i disconnected it and havnt even looked at it

[dsholler 54]

Yeah, but the thing has plenty of oil (I just filled it the other day, and checked it again this AM).. I was more concerned that this was what was causing the starter not to get energized.. but since it did not work when I jumped it, that is not the current problem (*it may yet be a future problem). I do not even know where the oil sensor is, honestly..

[can whlvr 993]

the iol sensor is under thr starter at the bottom of the block,there is 2 or 3 wires coming out of it,units without this have a plug instead

[Forest Road 594]

Welcome to RS! Before you go buying new start relays I would suggest jumping out the safety switches. I've had a few 300 series tractors do exactly what your going through. On two of them it came down to neutral switches, clutch switch, and even the seat switch. You mentioned that you have kids. They're the sole reason for repairing and not eliminating the safety switches. Make the right repairs now and you'll be using this tractor for another 20 years.

[dsholler 54]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my reading of the wiring diagram is that if I jump the battery to the switch pole on the solenoid, I have bypassed all the safety switches that can disable the starter (neutral, oil, and the seat switch PTO interlock. ) So energizing that is purely testing the function of the starter relay. (it did not work). I also jumped it directly to the starter (using the jumper cables from my car, so I did not create too much heat) and that moved the starter no problem.. so unless i am misreading something, the issue is the solenoid.... there may be issues with the safety interlocks, but since it did start last weekend, (albeit intermittently) I am assuming that they are OK (there is some suspicious wiring at the board that leads me to believe at least one has been bypassed, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it. )

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

if I jump the battery to the switch pole on the solenoid, I have bypassed all the safety switches that can disable the starter (neutral, oil, and the seat switch PTO interlock. ) So energizing that is purely testing the function of the starter relay. (it did not work).

Correct

many styles of starter relays can be disassembled for inspection

[dsholler 54]

many styles of starter relays can be disassembled for inspection

but what do I learn by this? I can learn which piece of the solenoid is busted, but it seems unlikely that whatever is wrong with it is within my competency to fix :)

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

After reading your post on how you got this far, I think you are underestimating your potential to learn, adapt and overcome.

Replacing the relay is the easy part - learning about why it failed is the FUN part. The relay pictured above was brought back to life by turning the copper disk over to the opposite side and rotating each of the damaged copper studs 180 degrees to allow exposure of the disc to new material on the studs.

FYI - don't assume the relay is not being triggered because it is defective. Many times, the ground side of the relay is not secured to a clean, grounded chassis connection. This can make the relay look defective when it is not. Run a jumper wire from solenoid ground (the metal on the relay case) to a good chassis ground and try again to engage it off the relay trigger terminal.

Will SOI's red-caped cabana boy convince DSHOLLER to take apart the relay ? Stay tuned.....

[liketoplayto 6]

^{my 520 had bad connection at the battery but before i knew that i jumped the switch by pulling plug out and running jumper wires inside the plug tractor started fine so i figured it was the switch put new switch in and boom back to same thing i pulled to much juice from battery for all the electrical on system then thought im putting test lite on starter see what happens it lighted up till i went turn tractor over went dead for several minutes so i traced the positive line found bad spot replaced the line works great now}

[dsholler 54]

SOI will probably convince me to take it apart, the question is whether he also convinces me to put it back in the tractor after I have messed around with it

I will run your test with the ground (I did test the integrity of the wiring to the battery, and that was good). What I do not get is how that could happen. The solenoid has a metal frame outside the plastic case which I presume is the ground. this is bolted to another plate that is bolted to the frame.. It would seem impossible that there is no contact between the solenoid frame and the tractor frame, given that there is probably 3 square inches of surface area in contact with the frame.

[dennist 139]

I will run your test with the ground (I did test the integrity of the wiring to the battery, and that was good). What I do not get is how that could happen. The solenoid has a metal frame outside the plastic case which I presume is the ground. this is bolted to another plate that is bolted to the frame.. It would seem impossible that there is no contact between the solenoid frame and the tractor frame, given that there is probably 3 square inches of surface area in contact with the frame.

I have been there and talked myself out of the checking the ground- do yourself a favor and still check the ground, it may save alot of frustrating time.

[dsholler 54]

OK,

So SOI set me a challenge, and I had to take it up. I tested the ground circuit, and I had continuity from the bolt on the solenoid to the frame. I tried jumping it as well, and no luck.. so the solenoid is the culprit.

I took it off (How to get it back on is a different story. It was pretty hard for me to reach up behind the panel and over the steering quadrant to reach the nuts..I am not quite sure if I will be able to get it back on without taking the whole panel apart, which has its own issues)I bench tested it as SOI described in another post in this forum, using the battery instead of a battery charger (Because mine is one with a polarity safety switch, and will not deliver current if there is no existing voltage ) In any event, the solenoid worked intermittently, sometimes showing zero resistance and sometimes wandering all over the place. the word "cooked" seemed to keep popping into my mind..

In any event, I decided to take it apart and have a look. this is what I found (minus the electromagnet module).. (having trouble including pictures and text, see the post below)

I don;t know if it shows in the picture, but the disc and the bottom of the poles were quite pitted. The problem is that this thing was clearly not designed to be fixed. The ground wire is a tiny gauge wire on the bottom of the electromagnet, and of course I broke it when I took it apart. I suppose I could re-solder it, but I am no great hand with a soldering iron. Also, the poles are not symmetrical, which means I cannot just turn them around and use the other side. Also, the disc is held on to its spindle with a tiny plastic locking ring, which I removed, but I am very suspicious of its ability to be replaced without deforming it.. finally, the whole thing is just pressed together, and I am suspicious of whether I can get it back as sturdy as I took it out.

Maybe I was just too clumsy when I took it apart, but I think at this point, even if I can reverse the disc and get it to work, the pitted poles will still be there.. and for the price of a new solenoid it would make sense to replace instead of repair.

[dsholler 54]

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Daniel,

thanks for the update and the pics. I don't think the images I posted earlier showed this clearly enough, but the top starter studs on the one I autopsied were really "blown away" by long term usage. Pressing the studs out of the case - rotating them 180 degrees gave them a new life. For my next door neighbor on a fixed income and gas at $4.13 / gallon, we saved him $25 on a saturday afternoon so it was worth it. In your case, the difficult physical location of the relay warrants a new (and high quality) replacement.

hang onto the electromagnetic - next time you are out shopping, grab a box of paper clips and let the kids learn a few things about electromagnets - maybe even a good school science project !

[dsholler 54]

yeah, those are really fried. Mine does not look that bad, but as I said, they are not symmetrical, so they only fit into the case one way, so I cannot rotate them as you suggest (Hey, I would have tried it.. I am enough of a cheapskate to want to save $25.. but at the same time, I only have a limited amount of time to work on this thing.. and the lawn is already showing signs of life here in CT.. a month early, so I need to get crackin'...

Thanks for your help though. I will let you know whether the new one fixes things..

Dan

[Duff 206]

Great thread, guys! I'll stay tuned!

Duff :thumbs:

[dsholler 54]

quick update.. bought replacement starter, but has different size (larger) poles. Means I either re-do 3 ring connectors, or go get a different starter... grrrr...

[dsholler 54]

FYI.. there are two stens solenoids that are listed as the equivalent for the Toro part. One of them has 5/16ths poles (studs, whatever you call those things) and one has quarter inch. Make sure you get the right one.. (this after returning from the 2nd trip to the part store.. )