How big a battery is big enough

[Paul D. 26]

I have a C 141 with a freshly rebuilt motor. The Battery that was in the tractor was only 230CCA. That may have been enough for a tractor that has been ran for 30+ years and is Well broke in but for a motor thatis still breaking in and nice and tight this is not enough battery. I have been jumping it most of the winter trying to decide how big of battery was big enough. I am considering making a custom battery box to accomidate a small truck/SUV battery thats 575CCA. I would think that would be MORE than enough battery for any weather. How big of battery are you guys running? I am open to any suggestions. I am thinking that after winter it probably won't be an issue. But there's always next winter

[CRE1992 135]

For small engines I always use a battery with a minimum of 340CCA....

[Kelly 1,029]

I've been buying the Briggs and stratton ones from TSC, they run about $50 but are like 425 amp so far I'm very happy with them, I have 2 right now both starting 520's

[Jim_M 178]

A 340 amp battery in good condition should do the job. If it's not enough battery you may want to take a look at your starter.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,131]

Our truck-mount leaf vacuum at work has a Vanguard 18hp twin and came stock with a 128 CCA "motorcycle" battery. (12N14-3A)

In addition to spinning over the engine, there's a rather heavy impeller that it has to get moving too. (need both hands on the starter rope & a foot up on the frame if you want to rope start it) So far - so good..... even in the colder fall temps.

Jim M is dead on..... check the starter, cables, connections, terminals, grounds, solenoid, etc. Unless there was some serious head-milling done, a fresh single-cylinder engine shouldn't turn much harder than one with a few hundred hours.

[wheelhorse656 20]

The guy at napa told me a battery usually runs about 30 to 40 more amps at a given temp than its rated.

with that being said i found one at napa that had 525 and came out of a JA Panies Car it was $105 and the same width and a little longer but it was about 3 inches taller than a regular garden tractor battery. and it was built to last 5 years and had a 18 month free replacement warrenty....

As far as the engine turning over hard did you oil the cylander walls very good when you assembled it? If so the hardness is probly coming from the reringing and the rings not being seated.it should only last about what mabey 2 hrs at the most and then it should turn over about as easy as and engine with several hundred hours.

[SALTYWRIGHT 859]

MY 417-8 DIESEL STARTS FINE WITH A 340 AMP BATTERY AT10 DEG. I HAVE 2 BATTERIES BUT IT DOES FINE ON ONE. RUSS

[Paul D. 26]

Maybe it's just that the battery is at the end of its life. I know all of the connections are good and the starter is fine. I do think I will upgrade on size when I replace it. I don't think you can have too much battery.

[Kelly 1,029]

Buy a name brand one, I've use Wally world ones and TSC ones and both even the big ones only last a couple years.

[Save Old Iron 1,565]

Maybe it's just that the battery is at the end of its life.

Paul

Most likely it is.

To confirm your suspicion, measure the DC voltage across the battery WHILE THE ENGINE IS CRANKING. If it drops below 10 volts, the plates inside the battery have deteriorated from sulphation and are acting just like corroded wiring terminals in the starter circuit.

Believing a newly rebuilt SINGLE CYCLINDER engine might need 50% to 100% more battery capacity to break in is not true. If it were, we would never find a battery big enough to be able to start a rebuilt 8 cyclinder engine !

Going with a larger CCA battery in an environment subject to significant vibration may not be wise either. To allow a battery to produce larger CCA, manufactuers put in a larger number of MUCH THINNER lead plates to gain additional surface area. This configuration allows for a larger chemical reaction to take place and hence larger current flow. Thinner, weaker plates produce more current but are more susceptible to damage from vibration.

I have said this many times in the past - and it's probably worth repeating - anyone who has a number of vehicles or lawn care products containing lead acid batteries should own an inexpensive battery load tester. HF has them - so does SCHUMACHER. A 30 second test with one of these can save you $$$ worth of unecessary parts replacements and hours of troubleshooting. Some folks who know this to be true may even admit to saving DAYS of troubleshooting.

p.s Failing all the above, you might also want to check for the 30 - 40 thou lift from the ACR mechanism during slow speed cranking.

[Don1977 604]

I agree with Save Old Iron a Load Tester is the only way to tell if a battery is good.

[tunahead72 2,386]

S_O_I,

It's good to see you checking in and helping out more regularly here again, I just have a couple of questions for you:

• What's your opinion on how many CCA is "enough" for these tractors?
  
• And, how much might an "inexpensive" load tester cost?
  

Thanks!

[Paul D. 26]

Maybe it's just that the battery is at the end of its life.

p.s Failing all the above, you might also want to check for the 30 - 40 thou lift from the ACR mechanism during slow speed cranking.

Could you please dumb this up for me?

[Trouty56 565]

I think SOI is talking about the valve lift for the compression release when cranking the engine.

Hey there SOI....nice to hear from you!!

[Jim_M 178]

He's saying that if all else fails you should check the automatic compression release. The ACR holds the exhaust valve open .030-.040" when the engine is cranking.

[Paul D. 26]

Thanks for the clarification. Yep the compression release is working. I will have to get a load tester and check it out but I would be willing to bet that the battery is just wore out it was already a couple of years old and then it sat for a year before I got my hands on it to rebuild it. That year of sitting involved a Michigan winter and not one as mild as this one.

[tunahead72 2,386]

Paul,

I just read through this whole thread again, and I'm wondering ...

Have you checked the voltage on this battery at all recently? Or tried to charge it?

[Paul D. 26]

Paul,

I just read through this whole thread again, and I'm wondering ...

Have you checked the voltage on this battery at all recently? Or tried to charge it?

Yeah Ed, Ive charged it, and it takes a charge. It just doesn't seem to crank hard enough to start. Today as warm as it was 38deg. I was able to start it without jumping it but it seems if it gets under 30 deg. It just won't do it. I need to check the voltage but I think it may just be on its last leg. The only time I have checked the voltage was when it was running and that was to check the charging system not the battery and Yes the charging system is working. Thanks

[Save Old Iron 1,565]

What's your opinion on how many CCA is "enough" for these tractors?

Ed,

The quick answers, 230 CCA in good condition is fine for what we need and the tester is about $30 - $50 from places like Harbor Freight or on Ebay.

The whole CCA issue does beg a conversation to fully understand what the rating is and how insignificant it is in our application.

A 230 CCA claim is simply this - This battery can support a discharge of at least 230 amps for 30 seconds at a temperature of 0°F before the battery voltage drops below 7 volts. .

Let's dissect that statement as it applies to our tractors.

230 amps - well sir - the little starter motor on a single cylinder engine is not going to draw more than 50 - 75 amps of current before suffering internal damage, so strictly speaking, the 235 current rating is actually OVERKILL. Yes, there are mods that can be done to an engine that require a car starter to crank it over even in warm weather, but lets stay with a stock engine discussion.

30 seconds cranking - something else needs to be looked at if it takes you 30 seconds of cranking to start the engine.

0 degrees F - that's cold - not the coldest I have personally experienced (-40F), but cold enough to prepare some alternate plans to better assure success in starting your tractor at this temperature. How about indoor storage of the tractor or a magnetic heater attached to the underside of the BATTERY - not the oil pan. And consider using an approved lighter weight of oil in the engine - you didn't leave the SAE straight 30 in there - did you? Heating the battery to a higher temperature will help start the engine much faster than heating the oil. Guess what the Chevy Volt does before it uses battery power on cold days ?- yep - fires up on gas , heats the batteries and then switches over to the battery power.

Sooo... to make this CCA concept a little clearer. let's relate 230 CCA to water flow. This battery claims "I can pump 230 gallons of water starting at 12.6 psi and over the next 30 seconds the water pressure wil not drop below 7 psi.".

You say "Hey battery manufacturer, I only need 75 amps for 10 seconds, maybe 20 seconds. OK, so I left the old SAE 30 in there from the summer. Can't you just put a simple label on a battery that tells me if your battery can do that?" The response has always been

So the average guy, not knowing what all these numbers mean, starts to think bigger must be better.

Hard to disagree with in some cases.

But I digress. In this case, the CCA rating of the battery means NOTHING to Paul's starting problem. The condition of the battery (and wiring of the start circuit) means EVERYTHING.

Back to the water analogy. We need a 12.6 psi pump that pushes out 50 to 75 gallons in 10 - 20 seconds. The battery manufacturer says he can do 230 gallons at over 7 psi for up to 30 seconds. Fair enough. This should get the job done. If we use a 230 "gallon" battery and pump out 50 "gallons", the engine starts. The charging system will then pump back in 50 "gallons" at a 15 "gallons" per rate (15 amps from the regulator unit). ** I have taken ALOT of technical liberties with this explanation but it does get the point across on how insignificant CCA rating can be in a single cylinder tractor application ***

I can see all the astute students with their hands up already shouting "Wait. We have to pump from a reservoir and we don't know how full the reservoir is. Does it have 230 gallons in it? 75gallons? 10 gallons?"

The only real way of testing the "level in the reservoir" is to put it to the test under actual operating conditions. In comes the load tester. The load tester places a known load on the battery and monitors the voltage of the battery while its under load. Here is a link to a test I did on a highly sulphated (old and ignored) battery. Notice the voltage starts at very near the 12.6 volt ideal level, but falls rapidly under a 50 amp load presented by the load tester. This particular battery charges back to 12.6 volts just fine, but just doesn't have the "staying power" or RC (reserve capacity) to power a 50 amp load for more than a few seconds.

http://s880.photobuc...=Movie_0001.mp4

Why a battery goes bad and what can be done to prevent premature failure of a lead cell is a whole nuther conversation.

Later dudes.

[sorekiwi 761]

Another excellent post by Chuck!

Thanks for taking the time to enlighten us electrically challenged ones.

[Kelly 1,029]

I have a couple questions Chuck, I have a few old batt.s here and I have a HF load tester, and a nice roll around Schumacher batt charger, at what charging rate is it best to try to charge a old batt before testing? with out looking I think I have 5amp 20amp 40amp and 200amp, and how long at what ever rate should one be charged? and for how long? till it is fully charged I know but typically how long should that be on this style batt?

[gregg'shorses 77]

Garden tractor batteries should be charged at 5 amp max better 1 or 2 amps. Also what weight of oil, SAE 30 gets a liitle thick in the winter, better 5w30.

[Paul D. 26]

Wow Chuck, That is alot of info to take in . Thanks that will probably REALLY help me once it finally sinks in and I "Have Comprehension" :thanks:

[Save Old Iron 1,565]

Paul,

This is a quick pic of what the battery plates look like inside a lead acid battery. Again, there are some artistic and technical liberties taken here but basically you are dealing with a honeycomb style metal grid with a lead "paste" applied in between the honey comb cells.

If all the cells are in good condition (represented by grey area in the center of the diagram, electrons from the battery charger cling to the lead paste and are available to leave the plates to "work" for you. Electron flow will spin starters and light lites, etc.

As you consume electrons from the battery, the sulfuric acid in the electrolyte has to give up sulphate ions to allow the electrons to flow from the battery. This chemical "giving up" of sulphate ions does 2 things. First, the sulphate ions given up by the electrolyte weakens the electrolyte (the sulfuric acid electrolyte becomes weaker - you can measure this process with a hydrometer.) Second, sulphate ions given up by the electrolyte deposit themselves on the lead paste in the form of lead sulphate. This is the process called sulphation and is the yellow area on the above diagram. Sulphation temporarily inactivates the lead paste where it is deposited. The net result is less active grid material and an ever diluting sulfuric acid electrolyte - your battery is getting weaker!!

When you connect a charger to the sulphated (discharged) battery, the electron flow thru the battery removes the sulphate ions from the lead paste and replaces them with electrons. The sulphate ions go back into the electrolyte and restore the concentration of sulfuric acid in the electrolyte (the hydrometer floats higher).

Seems like a dream come true. Here is where the problems come in. For the sake of conversation, say some of the water evaporates from the electrolyte (due to sitting for prolonged periods of time) or water boils out of the battery due to improper charging. If the battery is allowed to sit uncharged with sulphates on the lead plates, the sulphates become "hardened" or crystallized to the plates. If you don't refill the electrolyte to the proper level, this plated area of the grid will never be exposed to liquids and therefore the sulphate deposits cannot be reached by charger current. You have now lost say 10 - 20% of your grid material thru neglect. Your CCA's have dropped from 230 down to 190. But because its summer, the CCA 190 starts your single cylinder just fine. You never think to check the battery and keep mowing week after hot week for hours at a time. More electrolyte evaporates, more grid becomes exposed and sulphated and the old exposed sulphated grid becomes even more hardened and crystallized. Maybe by the end of summer, CCA's are down around 120 or so. But that is still enough to crank and start a one cylinder engine in warm weather.

Late fall arrives. Temps are down in the 40's and under. SAE 30 starts to get thicker. Your battery chemistry suffers too. Remember high school? Chemical reactions slow down in colder temperatures? Get out the vinegar and baking soda if you don't remember.

Now the 120 CCA's you had in summer are down around 100 or less - actually about 60% less when temps hit below freezing. This is when the sulphated areas on the battery grid really come into play. You now have a battery with grid area so small and electrolyte so weak, it cannot start a single cylinder engine.

Out comes that battery charger, you are in a hurry so the charger goes on the highest setting. The result is a very high current flow to the remaining good sections of the grid. The sulphate coated plates still sitting in the electrolyte will recover but the sulphated plates exposed to air (almost half the plate cause no one ever checked the electrolyte) crystallized plate areas will not recover. The charger is hooked up, ammeters are flying up to high readings and battery juice is cooking - LITERALLY - due to your impatience, you are forcing so much current thru the good grids they are overheating, flexing and maybe even popping off lead paste from the grid. Some of the good plate material is now blown off the grids due to excessive heat warping the grids (shown as missing / damaged cells in the diagram above). The conductive material settles between two grids and shorts out a grid or two from the cell - again you loose capacity.

The end is near for this cell - and if the battery happens to survive the fall temperatures and is stored in the shed, the electrolyte is more like water than sulfuric acid. Water freezes at 32 degrees F, electrolyte at about -90 degrees F. What remains of the plates are now buckled from the forces of expansion of freezing electrolyte.

The horror. The horror. The little guy never stood a chance.

[radarme 15]

Threads like these are what makes the internet so addicting. SOI, you my friend, are an asset to this site,