plasti gauge ?

[rmaynard 15,919]

Brian,

When I made my statement, I didn't intend for this to turn into a . I will only state that this is what two machine shop guys told me, and the same thing is repeated on Brian Miller's web site. The following is pulled from Miller's site. I will end my part of this discussion on that note:

"Sometimes as the rod journal (crank pin) wears, it will develop a "flat spot" at a certain place when the piston is at the ATDC position on the compression stroke. The combustion process places the most pressure on the piston and connecting rod at this particular point, which squeezes the oil out between the rod bearing surface and crank journal, causing brief metal to metal contact. As this happens, this point wears more than the rest of the journal, causing the journal to become oval or "egg shaped." Sometimes the upper part of the connecting rod will wear as well, but in most cases, it's the part that moves the most that wears more, which is the crank journal."

[buckrancher 2,694]

:banghead: bob your not getting the big picture here :banghead:

[can whlvr 993]

so my final decision is going to trust the machinist that DID the work on the block,and put the rod on once and not plastigauge it,i have to trust his work,its because i dont know what to do about taking the rod bolts off and then redoing,i still dont what torque to use,new or old,i think that the other guy at my machine shop is not talking about small engines,when the kohler manual says new is 260inch pounds and the used is 200,i would think that it is to stretch the bolts into final size or lenghth?after that they are stretched and only need to be 200,so am i to use what number after taking the rod off to remove and measure the gauge,i cant seem to find out ,one guy says they run them up 3 or four times before final bolting up,others say button up once and call it a day,it sure would be nice to have all the measuring gear,and i havnt used most of that stuff since auto class in high school,so i trust the machineist and will roll the dice,if she doesnt sound good ill have to deal with the consequences,hope that doesnt happen,maybe i should try to contact kohler and ask my torque question

[buckrancher 2,694]

so my final decision is going to trust the machinist that DID the work on the block,and put the rod on once and not plastigauge it,i have to trust his work,its because i dont know what to do about taking the rod bolts off and then redoing,i still dont what torque to use,new or old,i think that the other guy at my machine shop is not talking about small engines,when the kohler manual says new is 260inch pounds and the used is 200,i would think that it is to stretch the bolts into final size or lenghth?after that they are stretched and only need to be 200,so am i to use what number after taking the rod off to remove and measure the gauge,i cant seem to find out ,one guy says they run them up 3 or four times before final bolting up,others say button up once and call it a day,it sure would be nice to have all the measuring gear,and i havnt used most of that stuff since auto class in high school,so i trust the machineist and will roll the dice,if she doesnt sound good ill have to deal with the consequences,hope that doesnt happen,maybe i should try to contact kohler and ask my torque question

the kohler manual says:

new: as in off the shelf never ran in a motor

used: as from a running engine

new: 260 in.lbs

used: 200 in.lbs

DO NOT overtorque----loosen---and retorque the hex nuts on posi-lock connecting rods

cap screw style connecting rods:

285 in.lbs

over torque 20%, loosen below torque value and retorque to final torque value

Brian

[buckrancher 2,694]

what I should add too the last post I made Don is in my opinon

the first time a posi-lok connecting rod is torqued it should be 260 in.lbs after that 200 in.lbs should be used weather it has been ran in a motor or not

[can whlvr 993]

ok thats what i was asking the whole time,so once its been torqued once to the high number then its ok to torque to 200inch pounds,if thats the case and its ok to undo the bolts i may try the gauge,ive got it,but dont want to screw anything up

[wheelhorse656 20]

I agree with TT I preffer to use micrometers and bore guages. If somone followes the propper manul for thier engine more than likely you will not install somthing wrong. I always use a manul to make sure i remember things right. all it takes is one mistake to and you can mess up an engine pretty bad. I dont know if i would trust my engine with a tool that cant give me a definate mesurment. This is my Personal opinion only i dont mean to tell anyone that what they do or how they do it is wrong.

[can whlvr 993]

ya i wish i could afford the PROPER measuring tools,but an inside,outside mic and a bore gauge are alot more than i can afford right now being out of work,i know some guys think that if you dont own the proper tools than you shouldnt be doing the work,well its my motor and the only way to learn,ive had many motors apart and have rebuilt a 10hp last year that runs great and seems to be a good rebuild,so i thought id do it again,unfortuneatly i have to sell this one or one of my 414-8,to pay for the engine work,even when done myself ill have 500 in the motor alone,but she will be good for many years

[wheelhorse656 20]

i would suggest just getting a set of 0-4 inch micrometers.they can be had for around $40-$45 I only use sttaret and Miller but the cheaper set are good as long as you keep them calibrated which the set i found on ebay incliuded the standerds and wrench to calibrate them with. then get a set of teloscopic bore gadges they are about $25. i prefer inside micrometers and dial bore gauge but ill these are cheaper and as acurate. it can all be had for about $65 to $70 I bought starret Mill and lufkin so i have about $150 or more spent in these tools some were new some were used.

here is a link to the micrometers http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rand-0-4-Outside-Micrometer-Set-Carbide-Tips-9-pcs-/400241568808?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d3041ac28

Don sorry to here you are out of work. Hope you can find work soon. I know how hard that can bee just seen a few members in my family.

here is a link to the bore gauges

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-TiN-TELESCOPING-T-BORE-HOLE-Precision-GAGE-GAUGE-SET-/370514915248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564468efb0

[Rooster 191]

I would like to re-state my position.

After re-reading, as well as reading some replies...I realize my statement sounds a bit high on the "Horse"....lol

I don't mean to put anyone off the hobby or discourage them from the joy of saying "I built that engine".

Mics are definitely the best way to go, however plastigauge is wayyyyy wayyy wayyyyyyyy better than not checking at all!

If however you are going to be building engines more often, mics are definitely a worthy investment.

If your even building 1 engine and using used parts,or un-matched new parts, you need to either mic them or have them mic'd.

If you are simply double checking the machinist work, plasti gauge woulkd be OK.

Someone said it is the builders reponsibility to make sure the clearances are correct, and I agree....but that does not mean the builder has to be the one to actually measure them. If you do not own the tools or are not proficient with them, but you take your parts to a machine shop and have them measured for size and shape...then you have "made sure" they are correct.

[can whlvr 993]

i did have all my parts done at a good shop,so i should be able to trust them,when funds allow i will purchase the proper tools for measuring,but id like to get a large air compressor first,for sand blasting,i ordered some ring pliers foe 10 bucks as tt suggested so i dont break any more rings,so was looking around on the internet to price mics etc,they have come down in price since i last looked,thanks for the links jordan,they dont ship to canada but i found some places here that sell them and will stand by them if they screw up(which shouldnt happen)and they are in line with the ebay stuff,yes you can spend thousands on some of them but i guess thats for space tecnology or nuclear tec stuff

[Rooster 191]

Fowler brand tools are a decent tool at a reasonable price.

[sorekiwi 761]

Without wanting to start the "Buy American" debate (and does that evevn apply to Canadians??) the Chinese are producing some very good and very cheap micrometers, amongst other things.

Take a look at the prices on the "Measuring Tools" page here: http://www.cdcotools.com/

I have a few Chinese Micrometers at home and they definately dont feel as nice as my Mitutoyo's or Brown and Sharps, but they read just as accurately. The stuff I use every day I like to be nice so my first choice is Mitutoyo (sorry still not made in the USA), but for the conveniance of having Mic's at home as well, I have bought some chinese ones and they work just fine.

[can whlvr 993]

i am looking at fowler because there is a place about 1 1/2 hour drive,still waiting for my rings to come,went and talked to my machinist again(im probally driving him nuts)and he agrees torque the first to 260 with gauge,then go to 200,and this is not what the other young guy said,but thats what im going to do,like he said its only an air cooled single cylinder engine not the space shuttle

[SkyhawkTL 19]

Sure - use the mikes and dial bore gages at first to see where you are at. After that - Plastigage is a good, quick final check that will quickly show clearance and taper. Works great.

[clyde 5]

_{i always use plastigauge to be sure yoyu dont have a tweeked rod even thuogh its new! I REBUILD FArm tractor engines have done so for 30 yrs even small engines always check with plastigauge}

[can whlvr 993]

so i got my rings today,i tried the plasti gauge and by what it says the clearance was exact,even did it twice,so tomorow i hope to have her running,i just have some tins,linkage,and put her on the tractor,pics tomorow

[sorekiwi 761]

Exact is good, Don.

Now you know what your clearance is, and heaven forbid that later on you have a problem at least you can count out bearing clearance as a possible problem area. Good engine building depends on checking and rechecking and being happy with the results (and sleeping well at night!!)

:thumbs:

[can whlvr 993]

yes i would have to agree,so today i finished the rebuild,installed her on the tractor(took the 14 off the 312 frame and put it back on the 414),primed the fuel line,took the plug out and turned her over with the starter,just to listen to her and it sounds great.hook up the fuel line,(i pumped the excess fuel into a jar to get a real good full line,put the plug in and not 6 revolutions she fires up like it had been running for a week,sounded good,adjusted the carb a little,(my friend let me put the carb in his ultrasonic cleaner,they are the best way to clean a carb hands down)then took her for a spin,ended up a mile from my house going up and down some pretty good hills,working her good but not abusing,went back retorqued the head,and went for another long ride,she runs absolutly beautiful,lots of power and runs about perfect,i need to get an rpm gun so i can see how fast they are running,any way it went ok other than breaking a ring,it cost 150 machineing,150 parts,50 paint and goodies,400.00 for a practically brand new motor,heres a few pics,none of inside but some later in the build

and the 414 back together

[massey 119]

Congratulations on a job well done. :eusa-clap:

[6wheeler 662]

I use it. I will continue to use it. From my own past experience you can still run into trouble. No matter how good the machine shop is. I Do have inside and outside mic's and I trust them. I too have recieved the famous mis-marked bearings, and plasti-guage caught it for me. As for the bolts, if they are not heated to operating temperature, then they are considered new. I have torqued and loosened and re-torqued many times and never ran into trouble with them. I have torn down and rebuilt alot of engines, From 1/2 hp 2 cycles all the way up to 500hp diesels and I use it on every one I do. An ounce of measure is worth a pound of cure, is the way I was taught. I firmly believe in that. If I can't take the time to do it right? How can I find the time to do it again. And that gentlemen. Is just my opinion.

[can whlvr 993]

well today i cut a bunch of maple trees down and used the 312 to haul some of it away,i put large loads of wet maple in the trailer and she pulls them new,so i think shes good to go and im very pleased with this rebuild,it was fun this time(except for breaking a ring)and im getting ready to do another one,just all my motors are in good shape so ill have to look for another smoker,haha,so i put the 14 back on the 414-8#2and tested it on the same hill as when it was on the 312hydro,the hydro would bog the 14 down going up the hill full speed,not too much but it was working pretty good,tried her on the same hill,same motor but on the 8 speed,no bogging at all even in 3rd high,so i do agree that the hydros eat up a fair bit of power,the 12 is a little small on an 11 series eaton but can do it,but really i think it should be a 16 or bigger with a hydro