18 auto hydro mayday

[Hodge71 664]

Well as you can see guys its all back together. It starts and runs decent, I ordered new points kit today from my local Toro guy to the tune of $38. Now here comes my issue. I am at the end of my freaking rope here. I figured I'd take it for a spin and see how the blade works by moving some modified around on my driveway where it was rutted up from runoff. I went down the driveway and put the blade down and the tractor came to a halt pretty quickly. I pushed the motion control level forward and it starts this screaming whining sound like nothing I've ever heard coming from the pump. It did move forward very very slowly but as I was moving the tractor, the blade wont lift. I stopped and the blade lifted ok as long as I backed up first. It wont lift even if I sit still because of the weight of the modified on the blade. So I turned around on my road and start to try to push back up a very slight grade to move the modified back and the tractor stops moving and does nothing but whine, the wheels dont spin, it just screams. Now I'm flipping out. I checked the oil level, at full on the dipstick There are no leaks anywhere, other than the lift cylinder drips a drop or 2 around the shaft at its limit out. If I lift the blade it will go up the hill without much complaint. The only difference between now and before is the added weight from the plow and wheel weights. These tires do weigh considerably more than the junk that was on it, but I cant understand how that extra weight could stop this thing. Is this pump bad? DId they blow the pump when they blew the o-rings out of the old manifiold from abuse of pulling a fullsize haywagon loaded with hay? How do I check the pump out out, or the rear out for that matter?

I am so frustrated. This tractor has fought me tooth and nail from the time I got it. All that was supposed to be was new o-rings, but I changed the hydro manifold completely out to be safe. I changed the hydro oil and filter to be sure there were no contaminants. Then the battery was bad, fuel pump issue, carb completely rebuilt because it wouldnt run after new pump and lines and complete cleanout of the fuel tank, Bad coil, new plugs and condenser, points stick open the next problem. I am into this thing for damn near double the $600 I paid for it, not including the incedentals like paint and welding wire plus countless hours of my time and my dads time to refurb the plow, and I still dont have a running tractor yet. How much more can I justify sticking in this thing? Maybe I should part it out and try to recoup some of my losses? Is it worth the the $850 for a rebuilt pump from Sundstrand? Is the rear shot and that needs to be replaced to? I dont know anything about these pumps and rears so I need alot of help here. I'm at the point where, do I tie a knot in the rope and hang on and fix this thing or do I tie a noose in it and hang myself. Please help

[Pollack Pete 2,273]

I know it's no consolation,but that's the chance we take with a 30 to 40 year old tractor.I've bought many tractors the last

couple years.Some turned out to be nearly perfect runners.Some........well,put it this way,I'll have a bunch of projects when I

retire.I know nothing ruins the enthusiasm quicker than spending money on a tractor that we thought was more or less a

"turn-key"operation.I say hang in there.You'll get the bugs out sooner or later.You're on the right website to get the help and

info you'll need.And remember,when owning one of these tractors,working on it and fixing it up is most of the fun.Good luck

with your tractor and don't give up yet.

[baerpath 517]

Did you tighten up the tow valve ?

[AMC RULES 37,102]

I hope it's something easy for you. You're almost there, keep up the good work. :handgestures-thumbup:

[Hodge71 664]

Pete, I'm trying to be patient here but it seems that everytime I fix 1 thing, theres 6 more things that go bad. I hope theres an expert or 2 on here that can help. I know nothing about the hydros and pumps and I have searched the topic on here. Theres so much info, and there really isnt anything that meets exactly whats happening to me here.My eyes are starting to cross from staring at the screen so much....lol.... I just came back inside from fiddling with things some more and the funny thing is, now the gas tank is leaking from a seam or something on the left side. . Where am I gonna find a gas tank for 1 of these???? UGH....I'm all about sweat equity in something but damn this is getting ridiculous.

Duane, the tow valve is closed

Craig thanks for the support...My Dad thinks I got screwed and wants me to just sell it. The problem is, how do you sell a nonoperational tractor that looks like this for $1500...Nobody in their right mind would do that deal so its either part it out or fix it

[pfrederi 17,514]

I learned my lesson on my D200. I will never again buy a hydro that I can't try out, get it hot and work it. Got it home and it could barely move herself. I have replaced the pump and the hydro motor, now she has power but the hydro system will over heat when you run it for and extended period. The engine has not been a problem (knock on wood!!) starts fast runs well except for surging at idle...need to clean her and adjust the idle mixture.

Have you replaced the hydro motor?? I replaced my pump first and it didn't improve, then realized the motor as the issue. I was quoted $500 to overhaul the hydro motor assume pump would be about the same.

What lead you to replacing the pump in the first place? Did your 3 point or mid mount lift work OK?? Have you run a pressure test? Where did you get the replacement pump from? Have you looked at the spline on the pump?

Peanut gallery advice...For less the 100 you should be able to get a hydro motor replace the hydro motor and see what happens.

still not working sell it or part it...

Gas tank leak... there are many tank coatings you can do on the inside that will probably stop it.

[wheelhorse656 20]

find the hole in the tank. Then go get some seal all gas and oil resistant. it works great on tank leaks from small holes. I fixed a tank on a cub 100 that leaked like a siv. I also fixed one my 656s old gas tank before i resored it. I put a fuel pick up tube back on a old lawn mower to and it still runs great as well. here is a link to it. lowes and home depot and manards sell its well.

http://www.jdindustr...sealall2oz.html

[Irv 115]

I know nothing about the "d" s but is is possible you have a loose or bad drive belt?

[Hodge71 664]

wheelhorse 656, thanks for the info. That stuff looks awesome and I cant wait to get it and fix the leak. My logsplitter gas tank can get fixed now too. JB weld didnt hold all that well...lol

Paul, I never changed the hydro pump. I changed the manifold line that runs from the pump to the trans. The Splines on the pump seem fine, I ran the tractor and checked for proper engagement and the hydro pump is spinning as fast as the motor, I'd say that its engaged...As far as the 3 point, thats a sore subject, it was supposed to come with "most" of a 3 point. Well after getting home and really looking thru the box of stuff that was supposed to have the 3 point stuff and the turning brakes I found that I have A brake pedal for the turning brakes and a couple rods but no calipers or any of the other vital parts, and I have a control valve that I dont know if it works and a rear lift cyclinder and rock shaft. All the other parts needed to make a complete 3 point are not there. The mid lift seems to lift just fine as long as I'm not moving. Then it wont lift at all unti l I stop. If theres anything in front of the blade it wont lift either unless I back up. Somebody was inside the rear on this as theres blue silicone smeared everywhere. It was a concern of mine when I bought it but was reassured the hydro is strong and it has lots of power. ALso I dont know how fast these things are. I can tell you that my Dads 73 12 auto is whole lot faster than this thing is. This barely goes anywhere in reverse, maybe 1/2 MPH, and forward its no speed demon either. My Dads 12 auto with the 48" blade up front will spin the tires till theyre bald if you try to push to much of a head of snow with it. This this just sits there and cries like a sissy and doesnt move anywhere.

Thanks for the try Irv but the hydro pump on these are direct drive right off the motor.

[pfrederi 17,514]

Sorry thought you had replaced the pump. Given the lift problems that would be where I started. I wish they would make people have a license before they play with blue silicone. You do not need (or want it) in a hydro system.

Replacing the pump is not one of the more fun projects (I have a FEL to work around). This might be a good excuse to buy a hydro pressure guage and run the pressure test in the manual. Your speed and lift problems are not normal.

All of my equipment is old and when I buy something I never assume it will go into productive service immediately. Some times you get lucky and it will work right away sometimes it takes awhile. I have 3 farm tractors (59-68 years old) all will start immediately and go right to their assigned chores. In each case I spent at least as much on parts to fix them up as I did purchase price.

[Hodge71 664]

Paul, I know the pump replacement is a bear. That why I'm hesitant to tear it apart without being 100% positive a different pump is in perfect working order. Once would be bad, twice well thats just not an option. Its definitley within my mechanical ability. I usually never assume anything but when youre reassured that everything is great and it only needs a few O-rings then you spend another $600 on parts and still dont have it running yet, well I can tell ya, the excuse of it musta happened on the trailer ride home doesnt hold water with me. We must be relatively close to each other being from NEPA.

[oldredrider 2,548]

Jeff, I feel your pain! I got burned on a GT-14 deal. Trans was weak, and a ton of other stuff wasn't in great shape either...to say the least. I worked and re-worked everything (because I'm either stubborn or stupid) until it was right. At about the same point you're at, I realized I had too much time and money into it to turn back. After countless hours and dollars, I finally got it right and all is good now. Three (used) transmission pumps later, this beast will pull a 2 ft. wheel stand with a 54" dozer blade on it...and yes, I have a witness!

You yourself will have to justify whether a cash and time investment is worth it for the end result. For me it was, because now I can count on this tractor to do ANY thing it was built for, hopefully for another 40 years. Good luck and hang in there

[Ken B 3,134]

I'm no pro with these at all but I have heard of and seen broken bolts inside them rear diffs. I'm not saying that is your problem but in the very least we do know that someone has their hands in there with the blue goo smeared all over the place.

[stevebo-(Moderator) 8,264]

Jeff,

I rebuilt my auto 18 rear end a few years ago. The silicone concerns me the most. Sounds to me like that pump is screaming for fluid and if you continue to run it that way it will be toast if it is not already. There are a few things to check that should not be too much to handle.

1- Pull the filter off and see if you see anything inside it?

2- Pull the motor off the rear end (I think it was only 4 bolts) Below is a picture of the motor.

Be sure not to damage the gasket so you can reuse it. Silicone should NEVER be used on hydros. Once the motor is off there should be a cone type screen filter that sits flush between the motor and rear end. I believe it pulls outward once the motor is off. This is there to catch any larger parts or in your case maybe silicone. See picture below

The filter I am describing is the one in the tray to the right. Pull that out and see what you find. If clogged then go ahead and clean it up and reinstall and see what you have.

Another weak point on the D series is the coupler between the pump and the motor. You may just have a worn coupler? What does the fluid look like? Is it milky or looks clean? If milky then you are pulling air in the system and that may be what the problem is. You may want to bring it to someone who has a hydro pressure tester they can hook up to the ports and test the pump.

Joe's outdoor can be a good source for a new pump and/or coupler if you need one. I would say you are this far you have to get it operational if you plan on selling or keeping. IMO it is NOT worth more in parts than whole.

On the gas thank issue mine had the same thing. I think years of build up between the fender and tank rusted it out. You can braze it or use a product called REDCOTE fuel tank liner. I just used the stuff for my RJ tank it is worked very well. Good luck and stay positive!

[can whlvr 993]

i feel your pain too,i have only seen a d series from 5 feet so im not familular with them,i have a c160 that the pump blew 2 hours after i bought it,the guy musta knew,so i tore it down,found broken retainer clip,and the hydro shop that fixed it found a few other things,they rebuilt it better than new,and it has been perfect for a few years now,so its your call but your rolling the dice with used stuff,a rebuild could be a gamble too if the wrong person rebuilds it(if it needs the pump redone)i have a few hydros but the gear tractors are usually safer to buy,they seem to take alot more misuse

[Hodge71 664]

Stevbo, I cant thank you enough for the informational pics and the post. I will check the filter tomorrow and also will pull the hydro motor off the side and check it too. I know all about silicone in hydros. They never, ever belong together, just like teflon tape and hydros dont belong together. A guy replaced a bad hydro pump where I used to work and cooked a $15000 pump on a tortilla press machine because he used teflon tape on all the fittings and it got into the system. Too many halfazzed mechanics tear stuff apart they have no knowledge of and think that silicone/teflon tape is a gasket for everything. Thats why I ask so many questions, I dont know much about certain parts of these tractors but you guys help me so much.... I sure hope that all it is a clogged filter. I can tell you that when I changed the hydro lineset and changed the fluid and spin on filter the fluid was a mess, it was light brown and slightly cloudy, not areated, but maybe a very slight amount of water or condensation in it? I can tell you the oil is crystal clear now and not cloudy at all. I will also change the spin on filter. Its cheap assurance with everything thats happening. I will post an update tomorrow night as to what I find and pick your brain some more. The redcote info is appreciated too....Thanks again

[Road-Track 39]

Sounds like you still have an air bound hydraulic system from the manifold swap, even through you have the dipstick showing full.

It may sound silly but disconnect the highest hose connecter and pour fluid in both sides, then re-tape and reconnect. What do you have to loose! Hopefully the Hydro pump don't scream and work properly when primed with fluid.

Check dipstick level again after running. Make sure you still only read Full after priming. Remove excess fluid if over. The pump should stay primed after working as long as you don't have any leaks at any connection.

[stevebo-(Moderator) 8,264]

ONe more thing- DO NOT USE THE EMERGENCY BRAKE, DO NOT USE THE EMERGENCY BRAKE OVER AND OVER AND OVER. That parking brake pawl causes this

As KenB said eariler the early D's and auto 18 used a non hardened bolt in the bull gear housing. They would break off and the bolt would drop and get in between the gear and the housing and causes the cases to crack. See below for how I fixed mine:

(grade 9 hardened bolts)

[Hodge71 664]

I'll try when I get home from work this afternoon. Hopefully it'll get better. One thing I negelcted to put previously is that when I changed the hydro oil and filter after I got it, there was a cheap ass Walmart super tech oil filter on it. I cannot understand how anyone with any mechanical knowledge would put a standard oil filter in a hydraulic application. They are designed totally differently and do not work the same. Also to put a $1.99 oil filter on to protect a $1000 pump and transmission is absolutley insane to me. I guess the $8.99 for a wheel horse hydro filter was too much to spend to protect the unit. But hey I guess its not costing them anything for me to fix their neglect right?

[Hodge71 664]

Ok guys heres the update on what I got done today. I changed the spin on filter again with another brandy new Wheel Horse 79-5790. I visually checked the coupler and it is just fine. Complete engagement in the motor and it also isnt spinning on the pump shaft. The splines are fully engaged and fine. Next thing is I took the tires and wheels off and ran the hydro until it warmed up. How hot does the hydro motor get? I was able to comfortably put my hand on it even after running it for about 30 minutes at full throttle and full speed. Maybe cause it was only 11 degrees out, or maybe from not really moving any kind of load because the tractor was up in the air on stands. Any ideas? Next move will be to pull the hydro motor off tomorrow. I was unsure of just pulling 4 bolts and the motor off or disconnecting the manifold and pulling that whole side off. I had to run get my munchkin from the school bus and ran out of time. How can I tell if this thing is good once I get the motor off tomorrow? Im gonna check that filter while I have the side off too. The amount of blue silicone on this thing scares the hell outta me, Im trying to be positive, I guess we shall see.

[stevebo-(Moderator) 8,264]

I believe you will have to take the manifold off the motor first. I am not sure you have enough movement, nor would you want to move the hard lines that much. Was it making any noises when running it?

[Hodge71 664]

Steve it was actually pretty quiet once it was warm but I think I attribute that to no load on anything. It whined like a mother when I started it but it was also 5 degrees here last night. It was just sitting on blocks rotating the axles and lifting the plow. I doubt the Keebler elves fixed overnight....lol. I will do the manifold disconnect deal tomorrow and pull the motor and filter. I'm not sure whether I should hope its blocked with silicone goop or that its clear with no blockage in the filter. I guess its one step at a time. I have decide to fix it either way, I'm just frustrated with getting screwed on this deal. My Dads '73 12 auto has never had a damn thing done to the hydro on it and I bet it has 5000+ hours on it since '73. I guess when something is maintained properly they last forever. This poor thing has clearly had a rough life and I should have figured that out BEFORE I bought this money pit.

[pfrederi 17,514]

Yes you have to remove the manifold first. Its best to follow the Service manual on stuff like this, it is a good one. (Make sure that you have a lot of paper spread around...it is amazing even after completely draining the transmission a lot of fluid came out of mine as i got the motor off.

While you have the motor off if there is no obvious blockages from the silicone it would be a good time to open the motor up and look for scratches/wear on the valve plate (if you are comfortable following the manual) or take it to a hydro shop and have them look at it. It would cost a few bucks but then you would be comfortable in eliminating the motor as the problem and move on t.o the pump

[Hodge71 664]

Paul, thanks for the heads up I would have had one heckuva mess if I didnt know that. I bet a quart of oil came out even after draining. Thankfully due to your post I had a tub under it. I ran it for about 30 minutes today to warm the oil thoroughly and then drained and pulled the hydro motor. The filter wasnt really clogged with anything that major. Quite a bit of small blue silicone pieces but I dont think it was enough to totally block flow. I cleaned the filter and blew it out with a very soft blast of compressed air and put everything back together. I refilled it, put the wheels back on it and ran it for about a half hour around the house. I can say it might be a bit better but I noticed the hotter the hydro motor got the slower I went and the less power I had. To point the that I almost couldnt get back up my driveway. I checked the temp on both the hydro filter and motor with my IR thermometer at that point. Filter-129 degrees, motor-154 degrees. Temp gauge for the tranny was reading about 110. I'm not sure why there was such ambiguity with the measurements, but a spread of 40 degrees to me seems extreme. I have a question as to the capability of these pumps. I have seen before pics of C series hydro lift units with solid links that have lifted the front tires off the ground. Are the D series just as capable? I blocked the lift arm against a 6x6 and proceded to push the lever down, it didnt even lift slightly off the ground. Maybe took some weight off the front tires but thats it. I'm thinking I have 2 dead soldiers here, pump and motor. I have no hydraulic shops around me that redo motors and pumps, only make hoses etc. and I was hoping someone on here might have had good luck with someone in NY, NJ, PA area. Any help would be appreciated. I have a Masons Lodge meeting but will check back in after I get home. Thanks for any help guys.

[Trouty56 565]

Jeff, unless you pin the rockshaft there is not any down pressure....only up. Same with the 3 pt. Maybe you know this but just in case you don't. Wish I could help you further....