Curiosity Killed the Cat...

[Horse-Drawn 1]

Yesterday started peacefully. Around mid afternoon I was bored & decided to see why the trans on my recently acquired 400 refused to move. Since everyone loves pics, I took plenty

After removing most of the crud, I found this uni-drive sticker in remarkably good condition. Cool, considering it's exposed to the elements & it's 51 years old.

The brake band, drum, and linkage came off very easily & are in great shape with almost no wear.

The drive pulley and tensioner are also came off nicely.

The shifter was frozen in neutral. I was afraid of breaking something if I forced it too much so I tried to remove the screw holding it. Of course, it broke. I would've had pics of the trans in the drill press removing the screw, but I was a little peeved after breaking 3 bits & an extractor using the hand drill.

It still took 2 hours of penetrating oil and wiggling to get it out after removing the screw.

Next, I tried to get the hubs off. With my puller in the pics, they came right off. Keyways are perfect, shafts are perfect, keys look like new. Next time, I will remove them BEFORE removing the trans from the tractor. Wrestling with it was tiring.

Without a drain hole, I decided to flip it over & use the shifter hole as my drain. Besides the deathly smell of 50yr old gear lube, I expected a fair amount of water also. This is ALL that came out. 1/4 cup of rusty water. Now I'm thinking about putting it back together & walking away.

I loosened the side cover bolts on both sides before opening the case. Of course, after seeing what was inside, my jaw hit the floor.

This is the side plate I removed. Any advice on getting the bearings out of the cover?? Notice the "water line" on the case.

Besides the obvious rust and sludge, none of the gears show ANY wear on them?!?!

I quit around midnight & have spent most of today researching bearings, seals & bushings in the manual & on here. I have the uni-drive manual & the 400 manual. Combine that with the previous Q & A on this trans and I'm a bit confused... Conflicting info is the issue.

Here's a list of what I think I'll need to overhaul this 5010...

Guru's chime in now...

2 ea. 1234 oil seal - axles

2 ea. 1257 oil seal - input & brake

3 ea. 1502 ball bearing

2 ea. 1503 bronze bushing

2 ea. 1504 bronze bushing

1 ea. 1516 bearing - reverse idler

2 ea. 1517 bronze bushing

1 ea. 1518 needle bearing

5 ea. 1519 ball bearing

1 ea. 1522 bronze bushing

I'll have more pics as I continue the tear down at sunrise :wh:

[Coadster32 793]

Next time, I will

That's the spirit!

Besides the deathly smell of 50yr old gear lube

Aahh yes, I remember it well.

A guru I am not, but not sure what's conflicting. I didn't check the part#'s, but seems like you have them down. I'd size up everything, and try to get them from McMaster-Carr. They should have most of the bushings and bearings you need at at a much cheaper cost than Toro. If you're gears aren't too chewed up and rusted out, you might be ok if you're not going to "work" the tractor. If you are going to use it for anything, you might consider swapping a couple out. Not fun doing all the work just to bust a gear. Good luck.

[wallfish 18,003]

Member charliesd250 sells the ball bearings and may also be able to supply the rest of what you need. Might even have a gear or two if you need one.

[Toejam 1]

Watching and learning...great post... :thumbs:

[rwilson 128]

The bearings are R12. Can be bought at and bearing supply house.

[sgtsampay 117]

Wow, glad its got a great home. thats tranny looks like it was one its last leg...

[Horse-Drawn 1]

so... after a long day with the "honey do" list, I finally made it back to the 5010.

I pulled the other side cover off and started chipping the crud away to remove pieces.

Now I'm at the sliders and forks... Neither show any wear, but the whole thing is frozen. I had to force them with a hammer and brass drift into this position to get the gears out of them. Which parts are fixed and which move? I am thinking the rods move and the forks are fixed on them... I could be wrong, but I need to get them out to clean them. Nothing moves right now.

Now for the diff and axles... I am amazed with the overall condition of the gears in this thing. Even the ring gear looks new. No signs of wear on any of the teeth.

Small tangent... 25yrs ago, I purchased a set of "roll pin punches" for removing roll pins & spiral pins. Basically, they're a pin punch with a nipple protruding in the center of the head. They keep the punch centered on the pin and prevent alignment damage or slipping off the pin. I had to have them, even tho I'd never needed them before (on my 4th set now). For those of you that remove these frequently, they can really save your butt versus flaring or collapsing the end of one in a hard to reach spot. ...back on topic. I used one of these to punch the pins out of the diff housing. Notice the pins are perfect

The brass punches were used again to push the 4 pins out of the diff housing. These gears weren't in bad shape either.

I figured the next 2 roll pins would be fun... The one facing me punched out pretty easily. I could rotate the axle to position the pin. The other axle was frozen in the diff and the pin was at a 45 degree angle. This pin became an hour long task that had me using 3 pry bars to achieve a wedge that would push the pin flush to the axle shaft without damaging it. I broke 2 punches trying to move the pin after it was flush so, against my better judgment, I used a blunt cold chisel on the gear teeth to rotate the axle enough to punch the pin out.

Knocking the gears off the axle shafts went well. The gears look great & so do the shafts and key ways.

I spent some time cleaning random pieces tonight. After cleaning, I checked sizing with calipers. I was amazed again that everything "steel" is within 0.002-0.004" of where it should be. I know think all I'll need for parts will be the seals, R-12's, and the bronze bushings that fit in the diff housing(they ARE worn). I Thought for sure the cluster gear was shot, but ironically, it was the only thing NOT frozen in there. It spins freely with no grit or slop at all. So far, not so bad... More to come :thumbs:

[300zx 7]

Jay, I don't know if you have used the e-tank (electrolytic rust removal) process on rusted parts, but these sure look like good candidates for it. It would help with any hard to get areas. I know the old "hit and miss" restorers used it to free up parts they couldn't get apart.

Your progress looks great. I can't believe there is no major pitting on the tooth faces. It looks like you have saved it in time!

John

[Horse-Drawn 1]

Jay, I don't know if you have used the e-tank (electrolytic rust removal) process on rusted parts, but these sure look like good candidates for it.

I do have an e-tank set up... I'm making washing soda from baking soda as I type. Can't buy washing soda around here To keep from gunking up the tank too much, I am wire brushing the big stuff off first. There really is no better way of removing rust without removing metal!

...I'm almost excited to watch how much of the bearings will dissolve :thumbs:

[300zx 7]

I am anxious to see the results, also. Please post the results. I don't know about your territory, but Kroger stocks the Arm and Hammer Washing Soda with the clothes washing soap here in VA.

John

[tgranthamfd 29]

looks oh to familiar. Getting the bearings out of the side plate was the biggest challenge on mine. Your gears are in very good shape compared to mine. Check your width of your R-12 bearings, if I remember correctly, there are 2 different widths in that tranny, may have to spacer a couple of them. I did find the 2 different widths, on mine. Got most of the rest of the the bushings, bearings, and gaskets off of e-bay. I even have a couple of bearings left. Here is a link, if you haven't seen it yet. Good luck, they are not that bad to work on, I did it straight from the manuals and talking to other members on here. The link.

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?...0959&hl=rebuild

Warning is picture heavy.

[Horse-Drawn 1]

Terry,

Thanks for the encouragement! Your overhaul post was one of my deciding factors in tearing mine apart. Since mine was locked up, I thought pics & detail of my ordeal would be entertaining for the group. So far, so good... I'm tanking all of the parts this week while sourcing the bearing & bushings. Hopefully, I'll get this back together before June!

Jay

[Horse-Drawn 1]

OK... After my C-100 adventure ALL DAY Friday, snow & rain all day yesterday, I'm focusing back on my 5010.

Any of you that have had a 5003 or 5010 apart... Can any of you shed light on the rails & shift fork assembly?

Mine is frozen. The rails are supposed to move freely, no? How are the shift forks attached to the rails?

I guessed at taking it apart & thinking there was a pin holding a rail, knocked a hole through the plug on the outside of the case(now I need a new plug ) Is this where you install the balls & spring?

Since the assembly shows no wear, I would hate to screw it up taking it apart. I just need to free it up.

Any advice or insults are welcome

Jay

[gwgdog66 23]

OK... After my C-100 adventure ALL DAY Friday, snow & rain all day yesterday, I'm focusing back on my 5010.

Any of you that have had a 5003 or 5010 apart... Can any of you shed light on the rails & shift fork assembly?

Mine is frozen. The rails are supposed to move freely, no? How are the shift forks attached to the rails?

I guessed at taking it apart & thinking there was a pin holding a rail, knocked a hole through the plug on the outside of the case(now I need a new plug ) Is this where you install the balls & spring?

Since the assembly shows no wear, I would hate to screw it up taking it apart. I just need to free it up.

Any advice or insults are welcome

Jay

Terry will check in later I'm sure. He had something frozen up in his also. He soaked his in an e-tank I think to get the rust to let go.

[Coadster32 793]

This pin became an hour long task

Patrience, persistance, and letting it get personal is what it's all about.

Check out a video of reassemble Steveasaurus did. It's a little different tranny, but you'll see how it all goes together and moves from it. It's a two peice cast housing tranny, but uses the same parts, (exept for the bearings)

[tgranthamfd 29]

Hang in there, I didn't take my shift forks out because they moved freely. I did soak the case with the shift forks in the e tank for a while and it did clean up nicely. I would think soak, clean, and work things back and forth and it should eventually break free. I will dig around my manuals and see if I can spot how to take the forks out. How is the bearing search going? I have 5 of the R-12's left but I think they are all the thinner ones, I ordered them on line from somewhere I can dig around and find the source if needed. One set of bushings, I had to order longer than needed and cut them down to the right size, too, if that helps any. I'll dig around and see if I can find any useful information for you. Most of the specs are slipping my mind right now. I got a lot of my information from Mike (Mikesrj), as well. Maybe he will run across this post and chime in.

[tgranthamfd 29]

Item 12, page 7 in the Manuel that I have.

Before removing the shift forks and shift rails,

mating parts should be marked or scribed so

they may be reassembled properly. The shift

fork retaining roll pins may be removed by driving

them out with a 1/8

[tgranthamfd 29]

These are some numbers I ran across for the bearings that were 5/16" thick.

I ordered the GENERAL and the KILIAN. The Kilian looked to be of a better quality, but I am sure they are both ok. When I tore into the tranny it had the NICE 412-35 bearings in it, that is where I got the number to cross reference.

GBC / NICE / SCHATZ/ KILIAN

22603-01/ 412-35 / A-4852A / SR620

[tgranthamfd 29]

Bump!! Just wanted to see how things are going?

[tgranthamfd 29]

Bump!! Just wanted to see how things are going?

Wondering how things are coming along.

[clintonnut 126]

I've seen worse lol.....

Sandblast every gear, polish every shaft and replace every bearing and you will be fine!

Here are the R12s I sell for $3 a piece. I recommend using the correct non precision bearings on the brake shaft. I believe they are #6383K49 through mcmaster.com

Here was my 550 trans:

[VinsRJ 723]

Looks like a nice clean rebiuld :hide:

[CasualObserver 3,411]

I stumbled across this while searching for something.  Anybody know what happened to this guy?  He hasn't been back on under this ID since our conversion in Nov 2011.  Just curious how his trans rebuild came out.

[rmaynard 16,287]

I stumbled across this while searching for something.  Anybody know what happened to this guy?  He hasn't been back on under this ID since our conversion in Nov 2011.  Just curious how his trans rebuild came out.

There are a lot of guys that used to be regulars here that I wonder the same thing about.