Kohler running on kerosene

[formariz 11,994]

Is anyone familiar with a kohler engine running on kerosene? It starts with gasoline and switches over to kerosene. Are any advantages to this system? Definitely not cost efficient since kerosene is more expensive than gasoline.

[Don1977 604]

Never heard of a Kohler running on Kerosene. Some of the old full size John Deere Tractors had two tanks a small tank with gas for starting and a large tank for Kerosene to run on. I would guess they put out more torque on Kerosene.

[Operator 7]

Never heard of a Kohler running on Kerosene. Some of the old full size John Deere Tractors had two tanks a small tank with gas for starting and a large tank for Kerosene to run on. I would guess they put out more torque on Kerosene.

We had the JD B that had that system, If I remember right at the time kero. was cheap don't know about more power what you didn't want to do was shut engine off when on kero. wouldn't restart again.

Now I'm feeling old

Kohler on kero.

Randy

[Don1977 604]

Never heard of a Kohler running on Kerosene. Some of the old full size John Deere Tractors had two tanks a small tank with gas for starting and a large tank for Kerosene to run on. I would guess they put out more torque on Kerosene.

We had the JD B that had that system, If I remember right at the time kero. was cheap don't know about more power what you didn't want to do was shut engine off when on kero. wouldn't restart again.

Now I'm feeling old

Kohler on kero.

Randy

Yes they had to be hot before they would run on Kerosene. :ychain:

[harleyjj 2]

I have seen Model A fords set up to run on kerosene too

[dkopp 1]

Here is an article written by a guy that appears to have done some research / trials with converting gas engines to kero, including some small engines.

http://www.smokstak.com/library/technical-...line-engine-23/

[formariz 11,994]

Never heard of a Kohler running on Kerosene. Some of the old full size John Deere Tractors had two tanks a small tank with gas for starting and a large tank for Kerosene to run on. I would guess they put out more torque on Kerosene.

We had the JD B that had that system, If I remember right at the time kero. was cheap don't know about more power what you didn't want to do was shut engine off when on kero. wouldn't restart again.

Now I'm feeling old

Kohler on kero.

Randy

What would you have to do to restart it? Somehow drain the carburetor of all the kerosene?

[formariz 11,994]

Here is an article written by a guy that appears to have done some research / trials with converting gas engines to kero, including some small engines.

http://www.smokstak.com/library/technical-...line-engine-23/

I saw it before but did not read it thoroughly.It is actually a very good article on the subject.

Does any one have first hand experience in using such a engine?

[Jim_M 179]

Most farm tractors and a lot of cars built in the twenties and thirties were set up to run on gas or kerosene. We had a 1934 Minneapolis Moline that had 2 tanks. You started it on gasoline, when it was good and warm you switched to kerosene, before you left the field you switched back to gasoline and by the time you got to the barn all of the kerosene was burned out. Dad said when he bought the tractor gas was 12 cents a gallon and kerosene was 2 cents a gallon.

Kerosene didn't get expensive until the clean burning kerosene heaters started coming out in the late 70's. Before that it was always dirt cheap.

[formariz 11,994]

I assume that like a diesel the kerosene will burn longer than the same amount of gasoline. :ychain:

[Jim_M 179]

I think it used roughly the same amount of kerosene as it did gasoline but the kerosene was cheaper to buy. I think dad said it made a little less power on kerosene too.

By the time I was old enough to drive it we only got it out a couple of times a year just to keep it limbered up and we always ran it on gas.

[Jim_M 179]

There's no doubt in my mind that you could set a Kohler up with 2 tanks and a couple of valves and run it on kerosene, but there would be no advantage to it nowadays.

[wh500special 2,249]

Usually those old engines that ran on kerosene, distillate, "tractor fuel", or "tractor vaporizing oil" had pretty low compression to keep the fuel from raining out on the compression stroke. Often as low as 4:1. And some had exhaust-heated carburators and manifolds to keep the fuel vaporized. And many also had radiator shutters to make sure they could run hot enough in cool weather.

Carburators typically had needles that were fitted with big knurled knobs so they could be adjusted when the fuels were switched without reaching for a screwdriver. Some had water injection to help fight knocking thanks to the high temps and low ignition temperatue - octane - of the kerosene.

Since the low compression ring-set tended to let a lot of combustion gases passed ("past?" I never get those right) the rings and the fuel has a tendancy to rain out, most engines running on low grade fuels will experience significant crankcase oil dilution. Old tractors often had multiple check/drain ***** on the oil pan so that the level could be adjusted easily and new oil could be added to keep the dilution at a minimum.

With such a low compression ratio the power output dropped appreciably when on low grade fuel, but the tradeoff was it was cheap. Kerosene wasn't taxed as a road fuel and there was an abundance of it, so it was dirt cheap like Jim said.

Without looking things up, I would guess that the energy content per gallon of kerosene is probably higher than gasoline since it is a heavier fuel (like diesel). But the low compression ratio needed to make it work in a spark ignition engine would obviate any efficiency gains. I have no idea if it would work in a diesel engine, but it probably has different enough combustion dynamics that it doesn't work well. Might be too easy to light off and would be hard to control...just guessing

Funny thing is that during the early days of oil refining kerosene was a more valued pruduct than gasoline since there was no real demand for gas. Refiners literally threw the gasoline away. As cars and tractors proliferated the oil refiners finally had an outlet for their byproduct - gas - and had a market. Gasoline quickly overran kerosene as a preferred product and refining technology evolved to chase the market. General electrification of the US meant stove and lamp fuels weren't as widely needed and the price of kerosene and other high-boilers tanked. The demand for diesel and jet fuel today keep prices up and the "boutique" nature of kerosene means it's tough to make money selling it.

In the farm tractor world pretty much all of the manufacturers thru the 1940's kept "all-fuel" versions of their tractors available. At a minimum, some of the late 1950's Deere 2-cylinders were available as all-fuels since the engine design worked well with that variation. Some of the 30-series all-fuels are hot collector items now. As are the 8NAN Fords, Minnie Mo's, etc. It seems logical that low compression engines were more widely used for longer periods of time in places like Mexico, South America, and Africa.

Long ago I read on yahoo or somewhere that the Kohler and other small engines that used kero had an extremely thick head gasket to drop the compression enough to run acceptably yet get by without changing too many other parts. I guess you could try that.

Unless you have a big tank of kerosene or off-spec/stale gas there really would be no benefit to rigging up a Kohler to burn it. But no damage should come from trying it as long as you maintain your oil sump and are willing to clean out carbon deposits more regularly. Worst thing that might happen is that the engine would stall when you switched fuels.

Fun topic. Thanks for bringing it up!

Steve

[Don1977 604]

Never heard of a Kohler running on Kerosene. Some of the old full size John Deere Tractors had two tanks a small tank with gas for starting and a large tank for Kerosene to run on. I would guess they put out more torque on Kerosene.

We had the JD B that had that system, If I remember right at the time kero. was cheap don't know about more power what you didn't want to do was shut engine off when on kero. wouldn't restart again.

Now I'm feeling old

Kohler on kero.

Randy

What would you have to do to restart it? Somehow drain the carburetor of all the kerosene?

To shut down the engine you cut off the kerosene supply and let it burn the kerosene out of the carb. When you were ready to restart you cut on the gas and ran it until it got hot then switch back to kerosene.

[linen beige 14]

A couple guys touched on this, Rolf came REALLY close. In the very early days automobiles ran on kerosene because it was widely available. Some refineries were dumping out gasoline, but a few were "sneaking" it into their kerosene and selling it. This mixture caused engines to knock because the gasoline would ignite first, then the kerosene would burn. Mr. Kettering discovered this in his lab that later became Dayton Engineering Laboratories Company (DELCO). His experiments with the "hotter" gasoline helped, uh, spark interest in gasoline's widespread use.

One of the main reasons a lot of older tractors, etc. were made to start on gasoline and run on kerosene was availability of fuel. Most farmers had large tanks of kerosene to run engines and light their homes. Kerosene was sold in a wide variety of places. Gasoline was still somewhat of a specialty fuel and for years was only sold in drug stores. It was a lot more practical to use the hard to get gasoline only for what it was needed (starting a cold engine) and switching to the more plentiful kerosene when the engine warmed up.

[chevelletown 37]

Kohler did make kerosene / gas engines. A fellow Wheel Horse collector just purchased 3 NOS units from a very old local repair shop. The fuel tank is divided and has a small section for gasoline to start it with. I believe the engines he purchased were 6, 8, and 10 HP. He did fire up the small one and we had fun thinking about how to use it on a tractor, but for now they sit on the shelf with all the NOS tags still attached.

[mavfreak 11]

A freind of mine did a restro on an farmall f20, it had all the parts still on it for the kero so he kept it there. he did fire it up and used the kero once but the kero of today isn't like what was back then so he doesn't use i much other than at a show or two that i know of. One of our "H"s on the fram has the two tanks but we never use it. Next time I'm there and have some time I'll look it over and see whats there and if I can stll use the kero. Maybe I'll give it a try. If pap ever gives me two seconds to do anything but bring in wood or work on something else.

[WH nut 553]

I wouldnt reccomend it without a lot of mods. I tried some gas one time that came out of a tank that someone had put diesel in and it didnt run for ****. I would think you would want a higher compression to make the kero fire completely

[Jim_M 179]

I wouldnt reccomend it without a lot of mods. I tried some gas one time that came out of a tank that someone had put diesel in and it didnt run for ****. I would think you would want a higher compression to make the kero fire completely

Kerosene and diesel are not the same. Kerosene is more highly refined. Diesel is closer to home heating oil than kerosene.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,147]

I was going to do a bunch of typing, but this is much easier:

http://www.smokstak.com/library/technical-...line-engine-23/

[Operator 7]

That's what I love about Red Square! The vast knowledge is astounding!!

I just knew our John Deere B could run on either one, and not to shut it off

on kero.

Randy

PS Yup TT that would have been a lot of typing

[KC9KAS 4,744]

TT that article was very interesting and informative.

I do not plan to run kero or diesel in my gasoline engines, but the info is still great!

[TT-(Moderator) 1,147]

About 14 years ago, a '38 F-14 Farmall found it's way into my possession.

I sold it before I got to do much with it, but I did a lot of research on the use of distillate. I concluded that if I ever got it running, it would be on gasoline only. :D

[formariz 11,994]

Thank you everyone for all the great input regarding my questions. The reason for the question to begin with was an opportunity to buy such an engine prepared to run that way from factory.I thought it would be a rather cool thing to have a Wheel Horse with it since I like stuff which is sort of unique. However it seems that it would be a real pain in the neck since one essentially would have to let one fuel burn out of the carburetor prior to shutting it down so it would start the next time. Not a very practical system, just a potential source of frustration.

[WH nut 553]

Very good article