Why did they kill our beloved Wheel Horse?

[Curmudgeon 28]

Most every brand out there today is merely a shadow, if that, of what it once was. Even the ones we've made fun of for years now. I'm glad there is no Wheel Horse at Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart, etc.It would be an embarrassment.

I'm with ya there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree on the K-Series parts. I know Kohler is discontinuing many replacement parts, maybe all soon, if not already.

Man, I gotta get my list of stuff around. Included in that list will be 2, count them, one two, brand new, still in the packaging, K-361 camshafts.

Some things I just don't want to bargain down to give away prices on.......

[Teddy da Bear 11]

Someone earlier mentioned something about saving the older horses from the scrap yards.

Well I have another problem. I encountered (IMO) persons who buy perfectly good and running wheel horses and tear them apart just to make money on the individual parts. Now I can see doing this to a basket case. But there is one person in particular on ebay that does this. I won't mention his name.

He won a restored Gt-14 about a month ago.....and within the week you started to see the Gt-14 parts online. This kind of thing has got to stop. If we take apart every good tractor to sell the parts....then we are selling out. Because after a while....there just won't be any more.

[Curmudgeon 28]

This has come up before, and I know the individual of which you speak.

My opinion, it's a free enterprise system we live in, and he has found a way to buy ONE tractor, part it out and possibly save a dozen others from the boneyard, and make a profit in the process.

Sounds like a win win win for everybody to me.

[catman81056 3]

I think Dale makes a valid point.

[Curmudgeon 28]

NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Normally I just piss people off.

LOL

[linen beige 14]

I have my own thoughts about the loss of Wheel Horse, having to do with W.H.'s continually larger machines, building up to the D-250, and then the appearance of imported "compact" tractors. You know, the deisel, 4 WD, orange ones that became an instant rage, Kuntbutter? no that's not right, Kubota maybe?<_< WH couldn't or wouldn't compete with them in Kubota's market. WH also failed to recognize that Elmer and Cecil saw a new product niche in the G.I.s who had left the farms and countryside U.S. to fight a war and returned to a much more industrialized U.S. and the all new suburbia. They knew that you can take the man out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the man. in other words, these guys wanted to still do farm chores, but didn't have the room. An "H" Farmall and an 8 foot sickle mower's hard to turn on a half acre lot. So they developed a top notch product that filled that niche to perfection. But then the niche started to change and so did the product. Just as cars got bigger and bigger so did the Wheel Horses. Until, suddenly, they got too big for the base market. :dunno:A D-250's hard to justify on a quarter acre lot. At the same time, U.S. wages and production costs had steadily increased and then one day a new imported machine hit the scene, and it was FOUR WHEEL DRIVE! :wtf: Now WH could have responded with a 4wd of their own, and continued to build compact tractors for the baby farms, but they would have been much more costly than the imports and would have likely meant the end of the brand. Or they could have done what most other makers had already been doing and started to build smaller, cheaper machines that were "just enough" to handle the lawn mowing and occasional hundred pound load of mulch that the new market base had become accustomed to. Remember the "Lawn Skiffs"? 'nuff said. You see, by this time the market base was not the returning G.I.s or the folks who had grown up during the depression and REALLY appreciated quality, it was now the next generation who had grown up in suburbia, in much more prosperous times than their parents, and had learned that it was now ok to toss things out and buy a new one. Or, Wheel Horse could continue to build the best machines for the market they had been originally developed for and hold out as long as the market base would let them. I think Toro deserves thanks for keeping Wheel Horse alive for 20 plus years longer than they had to, I do think though, that Toro missed a golden opportunity to capitalize on a prestigious name by failing to advertise Wheel Horse is to Toro what Lincoln is to Ford or Cadillac is to G.M. I don't want to admit it, but the market base has died off to the point that Toro can no longer afford to hold out. It's up to us to keep the legacy alive.

[Rollerman 290]

Jim keep in mind the D 250's were an import themselves & were actually ahead of the compact market.

They were more of a commercial/light ag tractor than a home owner mowing tractor.

I don't know the numbers imported & sold....but I'd have to say there were a lot more affordable B-80's sold than the D 250s for those quarter acre lots.

And those B 80's keep running & running...(I know..I have 3)...just like the big D's

It's hard to justify buying a new tractor when the old one still runs or will get buy.

It's also hard for the dealer to sell tractors if the old ones still keep going & going...LOL

The market changes as does the product...I hate to see Toro axe the Wheel Horse Classic line too.

But this is a hobby...an affordable hobby at that for me anyway.

With the price of the last models built I won't be buying one on my hobby money.

I'm not saying it's not worth it...only that I can purchase a 20 year old or older Horse for a fraction of the cost of a new one that still works just as well.

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,496]

Who here are members of MTF? Check this thread out and especially check the post dated April 29 at 10:17 am CST: http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=55919&page=2

Basically, he says he received an email from Toro that the 315-8 Classic will stay in production until at least 2009. I hope that is correct though I doubt it.

[linen beige 14]

Stephen, You are right about the D-250 being an import, and I hope to have one one day. They are rare because they were rare when new. And I agree totally that WH was building smaller machines while everyone else was down sizing their lines. WH was just building high quality smaller machines and high quality costs more. For the most part today's consumers don't know true quality and won't pay for it. They are perfectly happy with "close enough". That was really the point I was trying to make, and I think you nailed it when you bring up the lack of need to replace a WH. I have said for years that WH quali-teed themselves out of business. I'm with you on the affordable too. A couple years ago I paid $250 for a 702 that had been parked in a barn for ten years. I had $251 worth of fun just watching the folks on the interstate as I passed them in my truck with it in the back, and it just keeps paying me back. Let's just hope that we can continue to afford to keep these horses running.

[Banjo 0]

Here I am complaining about TORO killing the Wheel Horse and the newest WH I have is a 1985! LOL

1985 Wheel Horse 310-8

1976 Wheel Horse A-100

1972 Wheel Horse Commando 800

[TJ100 0]

Hello everyone - I am brand new to the forum so forgive me in advance for any uninformed questions I may ask

My work has FINALLY moved me back home to Texas and I will be able to plant a garden this year (after about 15 years of not having one). I just started looking for Garden Tractors and it was a real surprise to me. Last time I was in the small tractor market there were riding mowers, a few lawn tractors, and garden tractors.

Now I mostly see overgrown lawn tractors calling themselves garden tractors and sub-compact tractors. I don't want an overgrown lawn tractor and I think the sub-compacts are more tractor than I need. Also, I suppose there is the nostalgia factor. My Grandfather had a farm and, when I was growing up, he gave me a garden tractor (and several front tine tillers that would loosen your teeth) to take care of the "kitchen" garden. I could be a farmer just like he was I know it was a Wheelhorse, but I do not remember the model.

During my preliminary research I have found John Deere and Toro/Wheelhorse to be the only brands that seem to have what I remember as a genuine "Garden Tractor".

My questions -

1. Are there any other brands out there that have an actual garden tractor?

2. It is stated here that the Wheelhorse is no longer being manufactured, but Toro still has the Classic GT/315-8 listed on their web site. Is this just leftover inventory?

Anyway, thank you in advance to anyone that can answer my questions. I have really enjoyed reading the forums so far.

I really like the looks of the Wheelhorse and I know it is a very well built tractor.

Thanks again,

TJ

[Nick 13]

TJ,

Some dealers still have the 315 classics on the sales floor but they are no longer built. You should be able to find a used or maybe even new tractor around down there somewhere. A part of the reason they are no longer built might be because you can find a 20 or even 30 year old Wheel Horse that can still do what a new tractor can. A big plus for the Wheel horse is its simplicity of design and operation plus over 30 years of compatibility in attachments.

A couple nice garden tractors still being built today are the Ingersoll and Simplicity.

[linen beige 14]

One more contributing factor is that home gardening used to mean raising food. It has been transformed into raising flowers and ornamental trees, etc. that can be tended without the need for a garden tractor. <_

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,254]

TJ, Welcome to RedSquare. There are still some classic's left to be found new at dealers, problem will be finding them. The Classic Wheel Horse line is done to make way for Zero turn models, and other consumer products. As Nick said, if you are looking to get a new garden tractor, the Ingersoll is an outstanding model, but of course we like 'em Red!

Good luck on your quest and :whistle:

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

I will say it is nice to see the parts lists, diagrams, maunals, and Wheel Horse inventory so readilty accessible for us on the Toro site. I guess they deserve some credit for that certainly.

I would like to know more about the new horsepower rating system you mentioned as well.

Thanks,

Banjo

I give Toro a lot of credit for these things. Many companies never fully integrate legacy products into their web sites (form their own past much less a purchased company).

While it really saddens me, I harbor no grudge whatsoever with Toro.

[Nick 13]

Ive been kind of surprised in this topic that the Zero turn mower fad thats hit new hights the last years hasnt been mentioned much. Back in 89 or 90 When I purchased a Toro Wheel Horse 616-Z there was only a small handfull of brands to even choose from. Now everyone is building them right down to MTD, Swisher plus some smaller name companies like Bad Boy Mowers. Maybe someday it will turn back towards tractors but weather they are true garden tractors again is to be seen. :whistle:

[TJ100 0]

Thanks for the replies everyone and the warm welcome!

I took a day off from work today to buy appliances for the house (lot to do after a move) and stopped by a Toro dealer. They didn't have a 300 in stock and, while the Wheelhorse is still shown in the brochure, it was not listed in their pricing/product catalog. The sales manager call his Toro rep and they told him they were not being produced anymore (I was still hoping).

I looked at some sub compacts while I was there and verified that they were just too much tractor for my needs, so I will continue my search for a "real" garden tractor.

Couple more questions if you don't mind. Where do you guys find your equipment? I have checked ebay and craigslist. We used to have a weekly "classified" paper that had a lot of items listed, but they don't seem to have those any more.

Also, reading through the forums I have run across folks modifying older Wheelhorse tractors with a 3 point. Will the newer ones accept a 3 point?

Again, thank you all for your help - I will keep you updated!

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

TJ

Keep watching. Also check with OPE dealers - sometimes they'll take on in on trade.

Maybe you should head (with a trailer) to Arendsville PA in June!

I bought both of mine on ebay.

Regarding 3 pt hitches. Only the D series and 1 or two other tractors (GT-14?) took the three point.

That doesn't mean you could not add one. The Lawn Ranger is the tiniest pony of a horse and one of our fine members has added a 3 pt as well as a loader, so anything is possible

The again, virtually every WH made can accept WH slot hitch implements. And the slot hitch can easily be adapted to Clevis Hitch implements which opens you up to a lot of stuff out there.

Have fun :WRS:

[wh500special 2,160]

Jim keep in mind the D 250's were an import...

I don't know the numbers imported & sold....

1000 imported in 1976

500 each of the mechanically identical 1978 and 1979 models.

So, there were only 2000 of these monsters to start with. The tractors were way ahead of their time, but were extremely costly. Seems like about $5k for a bare tractor in '76 which was BIG money.

many were unsold into the mid 80's which is why they are listed as available for more that 3 model years.

They were Wheel Horse's Edsel.

The design continued to evolve in Europe and eventually saw 4wd and diesel power. Not sure how WH decided to head down this path to start with, but I suspect the price (and the fragile transmissions) were the main reasons for the low numbers.

Steve

[wh500special 2,160]

What killed the Garden Tractor?

In my mind is was almost fully a function of lack of interest in actual gardening (whatever the cause for each individual). It's a different society now (not better, not worse) than it used to be. Not only do fewer people garden; fewer people (on a per capita basis) fish, hunt, camp, hike, canoe, and do the other low budget/no frills distractions that I suspect most of us still find endearing.

Remember, hardly any of us here should be confused with the "Average Consumer". Not that we're smarter, or more resourceful, or more clever in general...we just have an interest/hobby that eludes most of the people (don't believe me? just gauge reactions when you tell people what your hobby is). Just try to keep in perspective what a small portion of the population we are.

For the last 15 years, I'd bet that while 95+% of tractors sold were equipped with mowing decks, very few were set up to prepare a garden. Sure, many were also outfitted with snow removal equipment, but in most climes that really doesn't require a super-duty tractor. And, like mowing, snow removal really isn't an optional activity for most people...gotta get it done to go about your life.

Once lawn mowing became the principle task to the exclusion of almost everything else, the only logical progression from a "tractor style" rider was to a zero turn machine. Mow with one once and experience the time savings, and you'll never go back to a real tractor unless you're like "one of us" who values seat time as a form of recreation...At last count there were over 40 makers of zero turns in addition to Toro/Exmark yet the market for GT's continues to shrink.

Aside from hardly any of us actually buying a new product from Toro, the real culprit is a shift in demographics. I would be very, very surprised to ever see a resurgence of the GT - no matter what the economy does. It may be economical for some people to grow their own food, but you have to put a price on the time it takes to till, plant, weed, water, prune, fertilize, de-bug, pick, clean, cook, can, freeze, and store your veggies. With soccer practice, PTA meetings, commutes, and long work hours I think folks just find their time too valuable or scarce to devote to gardening.

What killed the "Classic" specifically?

Being that the typical consumer is more easily swayed by price, horsepower, features, and comfort the final 315-8 left a little to be desired. "only" 15 hp? $4000? A manual transmission? No fancy dashboard or gages? A huge turning radius?

Unless the shopper was well versed in the subtleties of GT's and was cross shopping the 315 versus the Deere X700's versus the Ingersolls versus the SCUT's the ruggedness of the classic design really might not be that apparent.

This discussion does make me think of one other point...

SUPPORT your dealer if you have any interest in him staying in business. You CAN get belts, filters, plugs, and other maintenance items elsewhere for lower prices but remember:

When he's gone, he's gone!

When your neighbors ask you - as the resident tractor export - where to go for a new piece of equipment be sure to send them his way.

Besides, building a rapport with your local dealers is a great way to get "insider" information on trade-ins, back room treasures, and that NOS implement he has no need for. Just make sure you have MANUALS, and PART NUMBERS when you need something so you're less of a nuisance and instead his best customer.

Toro held on for a lot longer than I would have expected. Clearly they must have had low manufacturing costs for the classic machines because the volume certianly would have made it difficult to justify keeping the line around for so long. Maybe they had a store of some valuable assembly that they wanted to use up (transaxles perhaps).

I wondered aloud before about there being any interest in someone buying the tooling and production rights to the line. Manufacturing and marketing headaches aside, I'm sure it could be done. The only real questions are how many sales could you expect per year and what would be the Return on Investment (ROI)?

Once again, another long post.

Steve

[linen beige 14]

This discussion does make me think of one other point...

SUPPORT your dealer if you have any interest in him staying in business. You CAN get belts, filters, plugs, and other maintenance items elsewhere for lower prices but remember:

When he's gone, he's gone!

When your neighbors ask you - as the resident tractor export - where to go for a new piece of equipment be sure to send them his way.

Besides, building a rapport with your local dealers is a great way to get "insider" information on trade-ins, back room treasures, and that NOS implement he has no need for. Just make sure you have MANUALS, and PART NUMBERS when you need something so you're less of a nuisance and instead his best customer.

Outstanding point about supporting our dealers. And doing so in a profesional way.

Let's not forget that one of the features of the toro parts lookup is printing out parts lists to take to our dealers. If the dealers stop handling parts Toro's huge database will surely go away with them. :WRS:

[Curmudgeon 28]

I've preached part of Steve's story myself for quite some time. Use genuine, Wheel Horse replacement parts from your dealer, not the cut rate crap from Wal-Mart. If your local dealer gets your money, albit maybe a touch more of it, instead of sending it to China via Sam Walton, YOU won't be the one to blame for the Wheel Horse parts supple drying up, or American jobs going to China.

Not to mention, in dollar per hour of useful life, the more expensive Wheel Horse belt is actually cheaper.

Every time one of us finds, and spreads word of, a cheaper source for parts, we are contributing to the eventual, and entire demise, of the Wheel Horse tractor.

[Banjo 0]

Great thread here, I apreciate the feedback. Excellent.

[522xi 0]

What killed the Garden Tractor?

Once lawn mowing became the principle task to the exclusion of almost everything else, the only logical progression from a "tractor style" rider was to a zero turn machine. Mow with one once and experience the time savings, and you'll never go back to a real tractor unless you're like "one of us" who values seat time as a form of recreation...At last count there were over 40 makers of zero turns in addition to Toro/Exmark yet the market for GT's continues to shrink.

Aside from hardly any of us actually buying a new product from Toro, the real culprit is a shift in demographics. I would be very, very surprised to ever see a resurgence of the GT - no matter what the economy does.

It took me forever (or so it seemed) to find my 522xi. I had looked at alot of tractors that were supposedly in "great" condition only to find that one person's definition of "great" is far different than mine.

I can't understand why someone would choose a zero turn over a GT but that's what makes us all different. In my eyes, a GT is a tool that can be used for a wide variety of tasks and chores while a z-turn is limited to grass cutting. Not trying to slam anybody's preference for z-turns and I realize that large lawns need a fast mower to get-er-done! I just really enjoy climbing onto my GT and doing various chores that require such a tool.

I guess in the ideal world we'd have all the toys, err tools, we need for the jobs that need to be done. I enjoy all the tractor time I can get (never enough) but I am always being pulled away for some other duty or chore. I had 3 tractors at one time and am now down to 1. I was originally searching high and low for a 520H but stumbled upon my 522xi. Low hours, MINT condition and well cared for during its life was enough for me and I pulled the trigger with no regrets.

Too bad most people don't appreciate the beauty, functionality, and robust nature of a true GT anymore.

[rickv1957 72]

Nothing like a good wheelhorse, old or new! Rick