Why did they kill our beloved Wheel Horse?

[Banjo 0]

Sorry if this is a repeat thread, but WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE for those bean counters discontinuing the real Wheel Horse tractors?!!!

Toro probably sold every single one they made, every year. Is there something so outdated with the Classic tractor that the new designs render it outdated and undesirable?

I SAY REDICULOUS! Toro bought our superior brand to dismantle us and take us out of competition, therefore, I HATE THEM!

Seriously, please help me understand what happened to cause this. And thanks for the outlet to vent.

TIA

-Banjo

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,496]

This has been discussed here before. And, yes, it's sad and maddening, but it's been done. To Toro's credit, they kept the Classic around for 20 years with just minor upgrades and refinements. Unfortunately it is the last of a dying breed. :whistle:

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,254]

In my opinion, they weren't selling. Take for example here, how many of us actually purchased a NEW Wheel Horse. I did, but that was 1994, and I probably wouldn't have to buy another. But most people here have never bought a new horse. The Wheel Horse tractors are expensive, considering that you can get another tractor for far less money.

Bottom line, if Toro was selling and making a good profit on the Classics, they would have kept them going. I can't be angry towards Toro, they kept these going longer than they would have with out them.

[kj4kicks 151]

Actually, I am glad that they discontinued the line, instead of cheapening it to a tin can ghost of it's former self. Better to go out in style.

My $.02

[TT-(Moderator) 1,131]

You know - it's not the first time Wheel Horse was "sold out" -- Cecil Pond sold out to AMC, and AMC sold out to Toro. It's like every other business in this country. The basis of the whole "game" is based on the almighty DOLLAR.

The difference then was that the successors kept manufacturing the product -- changing it to meet the demands of the consumer through arranged meetings with the dealers who "knew" what the buyers wanted.

I personally believe that Toro kept it alive longer than AMC would ever have - if AMC would have survived.

Toro can't justify production of one "oddball" model that is (forgive me) prehistoric by today's standards. They produce tractors capable of adequately replacing the Classic and have for years. (In their eyes.) They have to change their "strategy" to meet the customers demands.

The Classic is a gear drive, manual lift machine and would have probably sold much better if it would have been a hydro with hydraulic lift. Those options would have no doubt driven the price closer to $6000 for a tractor with a mower, and face it -- the average homeowner / gardener can't afford that.

I have several Wheel Horse tractors in excess of 45 years old. They are capable of mowing, dozing, and plowing - and will be for years to come. If any of you buy a Classic right now and take care of it correctly, it should last at least until you're old enough to retire - and then some.

I think the important thing now is to get out to the scrap yards and try to save the older machines. With scrap prices climbing increasingly higher, the history of our favorite brand is getting melted down and shipped to China. Shouldn't that upset us more?

By the way -- why isn't everybody pissed at Kohler for discontinuing the K series / Magnum line? You all better start gathering them up too - and as many parts and pieces as you can get your hands on! (I know I am. ) Someday that stuff will be like money in the bank.

And theres my 2

[rustyoldjunk 127]

its a shame but its true.they just werent for todays market.todays market is based strongly on throw away machines,imho. use them for 2-6 years and go get another cheap special. as for the kohler k/magnum engines,im saving what i can find of them too.hope that rebuild kits will be availible for a long time to come.

[DMESS 24]

It's pretty simple really. You can't keep selling a product that lasts forever! Planned/engineered obsolecence is the name of the game these days for 90% of the manufacturers. Granted there ARE premium brands still available, (and you WILL pay a premium), I don't think this strategy fits into Toro's general scheme of things when you look at their consumer product offerings. I think they gave it a shot with a few of the newer series that attempted to replicate the positive WH traits with some other modern features, but poor marketing and sales killed any further attempts.

I can rant about this forever, but I need to head to work! :whistle:

[Duff 206]

I gotta chime in here, too. This world of throw-away everything is becoming ridiculous. Specific to the topic, though, I've also got a pair of those green tractors I inherited when my Dad passed a few years ago (see my signature line). I just got my Horse last fall and got to know it intimately over the winter as I restored it.

Fellas, my 2004 GT235 (well over $4K when Dad bought it) doesn't hold a candle in pure quality to the Horse. What really kinked my crank was when I brought the 235 out this spring and realized the steering assembly on a 3 year old, low hours green tractor made half of plastic is totally sloppy compared to an all-original, 19 year old machine with real honest-to-God metal parts and almost a thousand hours on it - hours that I've since learned were spent plowing a long, twisting uphill driveway and mowing a place in Connecticut with more trees than a nursery to dodge around on the lawns.

Guys, I don't have a degree in business - far from it, but whatever happened to simple, rugged and efficient in equipment design? Are consumers so taken with pretty colors and racy features that they lost their appreciation (or minds?) when it comes to true value for the dollar?

All of this ranting is to suggest that the "they" who killed our beloved Wheel Horse was John Q. Consumer, not the companies who built 'em. Right or wrong, ya gotta sell things to stay in business. But here's the "up" side: just as long as there are collectors and restorers out there who give a damn about these great machines, the name Wheel Horse is anything but dead.

OK. I'll get off the soap box. Thanks for listening!

Deereman

Oh yeah - one more gripe! What ever happened to grease fittings on bearings, wheels and such? This "lifetime lubricated" junk today is BS! OK, I'm done! :D

[GlenPettit 1,716]

The only reason AMC bought out Wheel Horse was for their Engineers and the Patents they had: all the key engineers were put on designing the new Jeeps (mid 90's) and look how the quality returned to the Jeep line, also there were really no changes or improvements in Wheel Horses in the late 80's while under AMC control. I have a lot of respect for TORO and what they still do for Wheel Horse and us.

As for the Kohler K-Series engines; Air Quality/emissions plus the new horse-power rating system forced that (a 20 hp today is about equal to a 12hp older K-series).

[Rideawaysenior 25]

There is a lot of truth in everyones post. I would like to say that I have heard that the K series line was discontinued due to EPA regs. The L head engines just couldn't meet the EPA requirements of the newer engines. Thankfully and to Kohlers credit, you can still get parts for these, and I would imagine that you will be able to do so for quite some time as they have been sold for so long and are presend in many applications.

Now, for my feelings on the Wheel Horse era. I too agree that the customer is the ending factor of the Wheel Horse Era. I know that you can still buy Simplicity and John Deere and they are stron performers just like the Case/Ingersol brands however they are limited too. You can see the way each line has adapted to the needs of the consumer. Today's age is a throw away age. Nothing is repaired anymore it is replaced. This in mind, Toro needed to adapt its line to compete with the low end John Deere you find in the big box stores, and the Sears Crapsman line. The average consumer does not spend $6000.00 on a quality piece of equipment to be used on a residential property any more, they spend the $2500.00 instead and when it dies out in a couple of years of mediocre use, it is replaced unlike a machine that is built to last a lifetime.

My grandfather was a Wheel Horse dealer since they were first marketed. He sold his business in 1991 when he retired. That was a sad time for me because I used to go there after school and play on the tractors. His show room was my playground. Now seeing the mechanism that helped us cultivate our relationship to what it is today just disappear is even more sad. It is however a part of evolution and now a part of history.

I am certain Cecil and Elmer Pond had no idea the machine they built was going to revolutionize the industry in the way it did. Nor do I think that they had any idea that it would turn into one of the most sought after items of lawn and garden equipment that it is. I do know that they were well aware that what they were building would be around for decades as that is how things were built then, with quality and pride in workmanship.

When I started collecting, I never went to shows that were explicitly lawn and garden oriented, I didn't know they existed. 2006 was the first year my friend Mike and I attended the Wheel Horse Show in PA. My first feeling when I rolled up was, we (Mike and I) are not alone. To see everyone that was there filled with pride in their displays was great. This by the way is another thing that I don't think Elmer and Cecil ever anticipated. When I got to meet Mr. Pond, I could see the joy in his face from talking about his horses, their development and evolution. Eventhough the line is gone, it really still lives on with all of us who collect, and restore these pieces of history. I truly believe it will out last me. So, don't blame Toro, the consumer, or anyone else as the Wheel Horse line is still alive and strong as a permanent fixture in history.

[Banjo 0]

This has been discussed here before. And, yes, it's sad and maddening, but it's been done. To Toro's credit, they kept the Classic around for 20 years with just minor upgrades and refinements. Unfortunately it is the last of a dying breed.

Good Point. The fact that they kept it going for 20 years almost entirely rules out my thought they intended to kill it. Although... they may have intended to kill it after the takeover, but they fell in love with it so they kept around for another 20! :WRS:

[Banjo 0]

In my opinion, they weren't selling. Take for example here, how many of us actually purchased a NEW Wheel Horse. I did, but that was 1994, and I probably wouldn't have to buy another. But most people here have never bought a new horse. The Wheel Horse tractors are expensive, considering that you can get another tractor for far less money.

Bottom line, if Toro was selling and making a good profit on the Classics, they would have kept them going. I can't be angry towards Toro, they kept these going longer than they would have with out them.

More good points.

I just don't know how well the Classic was selling new. I do think there are not many left over 2007's on the floor right now.

I have never bought a new Wheel Horse, another good point.

[Banjo 0]

Actually, I am glad that they discontinued the line, instead of cheapening it to a tin can ghost of it's former self. Better to go out in style.

My $.02

Agreed, that would have been more madening!

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

I think it is just part of a general trend. People have gotten more concerned about price while becoming less concerned about quality. Of course that is a self sufficient prophecy so then they get jaded that "they are all junk so why pay more".

I suspect the swing of that pendulum is about over. I strongly expect the next few years are going to be *very* bad.

That is when people like many on this board who know how to fix stuff are going to really be in demand. And when buying new stuff, if/when people can afford it, they are going to ask the repair man who to buy it from.

Also, if it get bad enough that more people ae growing gardens then garden tractors will start displacing lawn mowers again. As it is, a lot of people hire a service to do their lawn. That is going to change too.

[Banjo 0]

You know - it's not the first time Wheel Horse was "sold out" -- Cecil Pond sold out to AMC, and AMC sold out to Toro. It's like every other business in this country. The basis of the whole "game" is based on the almighty DOLLAR.

The difference then was that the successors kept manufacturing the product -- changing it to meet the demands of the consumer through arranged meetings with the dealers who "knew" what the buyers wanted.

I personally believe that Toro kept it alive longer than AMC would ever have - if AMC would have survived.

Toro can't justify production of one "oddball" model that is (forgive me) prehistoric by today's standards. They produce tractors capable of adequately replacing the Classic and have for years. (In their eyes.) They have to change their "strategy" to meet the customers demands.

The Classic is a gear drive, manual lift machine and would have probably sold much better if it would have been a hydro with hydraulic lift. Those options would have no doubt driven the price closer to $6000 for a tractor with a mower, and face it -- the average homeowner / gardener can't afford that.

I have several Wheel Horse tractors in excess of 45 years old. They are capable of mowing, dozing, and plowing - and will be for years to come. If any of you buy a Classic right now and take care of it correctly, it should last at least until you're old enough to retire - and then some.

I think the important thing now is to get out to the scrap yards and try to save the older machines. With scrap prices climbing increasingly higher, the history of our favorite brand is getting melted down and shipped to China. Shouldn't that upset us more?

By the way -- why isn't everybody pissed at Kohler for discontinuing the K series / Magnum line? You all better start gathering them up too - and as many parts and pieces as you can get your hands on! (I know I am. ) Someday that stuff will be like money in the bank.

And theres my 2

[Banjo 0]

The only reason AMC bought out Wheel Horse was for their Engineers and the Patents they had: all the key engineers were put on designing the new Jeeps (mid 90's) and look how the quality returned to the Jeep line, also there were really no changes or improvements in Wheel Horses in the late 80's while under AMC control. I have a lot of respect for TORO and what they still do for Wheel Horse and us.

As for the Kohler K-Series engines; Air Quality/emissions plus the new horse-power rating system forced that (a 20 hp today is about equal to a 12hp older K-series).

I will say it is nice to see the parts lists, diagrams, maunals, and Wheel Horse inventory so readilty accessible for us on the Toro site. I guess they deserve some credit for that certainly.

I would like to know more about the new horsepower rating system you mentioned as well.

Thanks,

Banjo

[Banjo 0]

My grandfather was a Wheel Horse dealer since they were first marketed. He sold his business in 1991 when he retired. That was a sad time for me because I used to go there after school and play on the tractors. His show room was my playground. Now seeing the mechanism that helped us cultivate our relationship to what it is today just disappear is even more sad. It is however a part of evolution and now a part of history.

Priceless :whistle:

[mcwh1950 2]

no one sold out the wheel hosre brand =============why do you think we are here .... if you g---father would hard you ......... would he be happy

[Curmudgeon 28]

In my opinion, they weren't selling. Take for example here, how many of us actually purchased a NEW Wheel Horse. I did, but that was 1994, and I probably wouldn't have to buy another. But most people here have never bought a new horse. The Wheel Horse tractors are expensive, considering that you can get another tractor for far less money.

Bottom line, if Toro was selling and making a good profit on the Classics, they would have kept them going. I can't be angry towards Toro, they kept these going longer than they would have with out them.

HEY!!!!!!!!!! I bought a brand new one!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, it was 20 years and it's still going strong....

[Curmudgeon 28]

How many times have you seen in these threads the ooooing and ahhhhing over a cup holder?

Now you can buy machines with cup holders, because that's what has been ooooed and ahhhhed over.

Just like you have cars with heated and cooled cupholders, instead of cars that get good gas mileage.

We get just exactly what we demand. Then complain because that's what's out there to be purchased?

If you backed up 30 years, and adjusted gas to inflation, you'd find out $4.00 a gallon is CHEAP! So enjoy your cupholders fellas, it's what you asked for.

[horseheadhunter 17]

Amen Terry !! I'm with you on this !! "I think the important thing now is to get out to the scrap yards and try to save the older machines. With scrap prices climbing increasingly higher, the history of our favorite brand is getting melted down and shipped to China. Shouldn't that upset us more?

By the way -- why isn't everybody pissed at Kohler for discontinuing the K series / Magnum line? You all better start gathering them up too - and as many parts and pieces as you can get your hands on! (I know I am. ) Someday that stuff will be like money in the bank.

And theres my 2

[refracman 167]

I would have to also add that Toro did a pi$$ poor job of advertising the WH brand. If you talk to you dealers most if not all are repeat buyers. I grew up with a WH dealer right down the road so I've seen them all my life.( I now live 1/2 mile down the road). Because of the poor advertising from Toro compared to jd in 97 or 98 they flipped to jd to get there sales back up. although they still carry Toro push mowers and parts for Toro/WH they don't push it.

When I bought my new one ( 03 417XT) I had to go to a guy that when they switched he decided to open his own dealership up and have mostly bought all my parts from him and he's 20 miles away and the other is only 5.

But i would have to say that Toro held their prices because the 518 i just got sold for 3995 and the 417 I bought in 03 was 4200.

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,254]

I agree 100% with that. If it weren't for my dad having a C-160, I would NEVER have had a Wheel Horse because I would NEVER have heard of them.

[DMESS 24]

I agree 100% with that. If it weren't for my dad having a C-160, I would NEVER have had a Wheel Horse because I would NEVER have heard of them.

X3. I didn't go into this, but lack of marketing was a BIG issue as well. After the big hurrah in 1990 when the product line aquired the "name", things got quiet pretty quickly. Okay, they tried to make a little excitement in 96' with the 50th anniversary and the "search for the oldest running Wheel Horse", but even that was pretty low key.

I'm still trying to recall when I last saw a newspaper/magazine TV add touting Wheel Horse?

[hoosier 1]

Most every brand out there today is merely a shadow, if that, of what it once was. Even the ones we've made fun of for years now. I'm glad there is no Wheel Horse at Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart, etc.It would be an embarrassment.