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danjmah

1979 C-111 Kill Relay?

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danjmah

I am trying to resurrect my 1979 C-111. When I turn the ignition all I hear is a clicking in the 'Kill Relay' box. Any suggestions/help? Thanks.

Details: new Battery and starter. Motor is the 11HP B&S.

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daemon2525

Maybe someone will chime in and teach me something, but I don't know what a "kill relay" is. Are you maybe talkinig about the starter solenoid?

If that is the case and you have a new battery, then I would be looking for a bad ground?

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danjmah

Thanks but it's not the solenoid. Here is the C-111 wiring diagram which shows the details.

C111_WD.jpg

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TT

Long story short, the "kill" relay was used to eliminate changing the configuration of the entire safety interlock circuit for the two or three GT models that used magneto ignition vs. battery ignition.

The clicking you hear at the relay when turning the key to "on" (and/or "start") is correct. When power from the ignition switch is applied to the control side of the relay, the contacts break at the magneto ground circuit and allow the coil to fire.

When the PTO is disengaged, power flows directly to the relay and the ground circuit opens.

When the PTO is engaged, power is routed through the operator presence (seat) switch. Cutting the power to the relay will allow the contacts to close and ground the ignition coil.

It actually sounds like a clutch switch or the other switch at the PTO lever is causing your "no crank" condition.

I would start the troubleshooting by placing the tractor in neutral and using a jumper wire to apply battery power to the small trigger terminal on the starter solenoid. If the starter motor engages, work your way from the "S" terminal on the ignition switch ~ through the PTO switch ~ through the clutch switch ~ and then to the starter solenoid trigger terminal until you get battery voltage there with the key in the start position.

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danjmah

Thanks All.

Unfortunately the PO has modified the electrical where the only switch found is the PTO Interlock (which is severely deteriorated) so this adds to the mystery. The rust also doesn

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harleyjj

Funny you mention it I had the same issue a few days ago with my C-111! I had placed the battery tender that I keep it hooked up to inbetween the battery and the engine, sort of resting on top of the starter solenoid. when I tried to start it nothing but a click. I moved the tender and voila it started right up. I figured I must have moved a wire or something causing a loss of connection???

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Save Old Iron

using a jumper wire to apply battery power to the small trigger terminal on the starter solenoid. If the starter motor engages, work your way from the "S" terminal on the ignition switch ~

but resist ANY TEMPTATION to apply the jumper wire to the "B" terminal on the kill relay - that will smoke your magneto in seconds.

2 ideas here.

if you are familiar with the use of an multimeter, disconnect the tractor battery and ohm out the pathway from the ignition switch to the "B" terminal on the kill relay

but given the "custom" wiring you have - maybe we can work thru repairing what you currently have or rewiring to the original configuration of wiring.

Let me know. Working long distance and sight unseen on "custom" wiring makes for some of the most interesting posts here.

I'll be glad to hang around and help you thru it - whichever way you decide you would like to proceed.

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danjmah

Thanks Chuck - I will try the ohm idea. Appreciate the help.

I was able to jump the starter and the motor does have a spark. Looks as if the fuel pump is not functional as no gas is being sent to the carb. I added a little gas in the spark plug hole and surprisingly it ran for a few short seconds. Hopefully I can find a rebuild kit for the fuel pump.

Daniel

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Save Old Iron

Daniel, some progress

that's great.

I have taken your schematic and outlined the resistance checks I would make to get the starter to crank via the ignition switch. Conceptually the same as TT mentioned before, but some folks feel a little safer about have the tractor "powered down" to test resistance versus jumping live 12 volts onto different components in the tractor.

Either way will work, just depends on how safe you feel doing either one.

Measure PTO switch / wiring continuity by measuring from the callouts between black and pink designations on the diagram below. Ohms should drop to zero when the PTO switch is in the OFF position.

Measure Pedal Interlock Switch between the callouts between the pink to green designations. Manually activate the pedal switch and ohms should drop close to zero when the switch is pressed in.

Ultimately, regardless of how your wiring is arranged , bypassed or possibly botched, you want zero ohms resistance between the "S" terminal on the ignition switch to the "small terminal" of the starter solenoid WHEN THE PTO IS OFF AND THE PEDAL INTERLOCK SWITCH IS DEPRESSED.

nostart.jpg

I'll be around later this weekend if you need help.

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Save Old Iron

Also,

since you really never know what has been done to a tractor before you got it,

check the style of starter solenoid you have on the engine.

a 4 terminal solenoid will need one of the 2 "small" terminals grounded.

a 3 terminal solenoid will need the metal case of the solenoid grounded properly to work .

then of course you need a good ground from the engine to the chassis, chassis to the battery, etc.

pictures are always worth a thousand words !

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danjmah

Engine runs like a top! Smoked a bit at first but I suspect that was due to the oil I put in the plug hole a while back for long term storage. It turns out it wasn't the fuel pump, but a hole in the vacuum hose? I replaced that and the fuel lines.

So now to tackle the electrical.

Chuck,

The solenoid currently installed is a 3 terminal. Looking at it closer I found the case is severely cracked. I believe I saw your write-up about rebuilding the solenoid but will do more homework to see if my issue applies.

Wow thanks much for the write-up I definitely can use the help in this area and really appreciate the time you have put into this. I will study this closely.

Daniel

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danjmah

Need more Help please!

I finally got some time to look at the electrical issues. I read over this post and it seemed similar to my issue:

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?...2&hl=s+terminal

I tried the following which were suggested in this post and what was used in the above post but no luck:

- Jumped from ignition switch Start to the small wire/small terminal on the Solenoid. Nothing happened in RUN or START position.

- Multi-meter showed nothing when connected to the small wire/small terminal on the Solenoid in the RUN or START position.

Note:

1) I had to replace the solenoid and the ignition switch is also new.

2) I have 12 volts at one of the solenoid terminal where it is connected directly to the battery + terminal.

3) I haven't done the ohm test yet.

Here is a pic of the interlock switch not sure what to jump.

c111_Inter.jpg

Any suggestions would be appreciated, thx.

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TT

A jumper connecting the two larger red wires will bypass the relay for testing purposes.

A jumper wire from the battery cable side of the starter solenoid to the small "trigger" terminal on the solenoid will bypass everything but the electromagnetic coil inside the solenoid. (make sure that tranz is in neutral before attempting!)

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danjmah

Thanks TT.

The starter cranked when I tried your 2nd suggestion, nothing happened when I did the first.

DJM

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TT

Did you check to see if there's power at one of the two red wires on the interlock relay when the key is in the start position?

If there is - and you connect those two red wires with a jumper, it has to be either the clutch switch or a broken/disconnected wire.

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danjmah

I believe I checked that and got no voltage on the multi-meter but I will check again.

Also, just FYI: the PO removed the the 'Seat Switch' and the 'Pedal Interlock Switch' so all that remains is the PTO Interlock. I checked the wiring for those bypasses initially and they looked OK but I have to check this again.

Thanks, DJM.

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danjmah

Got IT!

OK I'm an idiot, the one line to ammeter was disconnected!!

Now I'm one step closer to getting this C-111 ready for duty again.

Thanks TT, save_old_iron (Chuck) and all.

DJM

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