Sparky-(Admin) 21,398 #1 Posted March 10, 2008 So as some of you know I'm gettin my D-160 ready for the show this year. Well everytime I get something fixed a new thing goes bad. After an oil change and a new airfilter I took it out for a spin, and lo and behold one of the axle seals has let go. It was nice and dry for the last year while it was in hibernation . Its not just damp either, its a steady drip that needed a coffee can put under it if ya know what I mean. So according to TORO's master parts viewer their still available(part# 6449) and cheap enough at about $6 each. How difficult is this job and do I need a special tool. I think I heard someone mention Seal Pick before. I have somehow managed to not have to get into a tranny in my 8 years of collecting and have only had to do shifter boots , brake bands and fluid swaps. Any advice for a rookie? Mike...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nylyon-(Admin) 7,299 #2 Posted March 10, 2008 Mike I haven't replaced the seals on a Horse, but if it has a flang on the outside, you can pry it off with a screwdriver. I have also used small sheet metal screws, screwed them into the seal, then pry the seal out. On a similar note, you bought one of those Hub pullers right? Hope it will fit the D. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kpinnc 12,341 #3 Posted March 10, 2008 The hydros are a little more work to remove Mike, but it can be done basically the same way. The hydro seals have a metal "rim" on them, I assume due to the transaxle case having pressure on the fluid when running. Still, it'll come out and go back in the same way without tearing the tranny down. Be sure and file any "burrs" down on the keyway of the axle BEFORE you remove the old seal. It'll keep you from tearing the new seal when you install it, and doing it before removing the old one will reduce the chances of getting grit in the bearings and case on installation. You can "press" the new seal in with a peice of pipe (PVC probably won't work on the hydro seal), just take your time. You can crush the outer ring on the seal if you force it. Light tapping with a small hammer won't hurt it. Just don't BEAT it. It'll be tricky to get started, but it'll go nicely afterward. you can use Q-tips to wipe away any grime where the seal seats in the case too. It'll make things MUCH easier. You'll also probably want to tilt the tractor so the fluid drains away from the axle you're working with, or just drain the fluid altogether. It'll be messy if you don't! Kevin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sparky-(Admin) 21,398 #4 Posted March 10, 2008 Thanks Kevin for the info. I suppose as long as the fluid will be out I should probably do both sides. And Karl, yes I bought one of Dales famous hub pullers but its for a 5 lug hub and the 'D" has 6 lugs so its gonna be a fight I think. Mike........... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glenn27 71 #5 Posted March 10, 2008 I just replaced the R/R axle seal on my C-120 yesterday--leaving the axle intact--there's really not enough room to get in there to drill a hole in the seal for a screw, and second--there's not enough metal surface to even drill... That seal number is also the same one for my tractor--- Luckily/ very , very luckily!! --after cleaning up the shaft good--I finally got the old seal out by prying w/ a small screwdiver where the tip was already bent. and tapping on it w/ a small hammer.. Apply a light film of grease on the shaft--slide the seal up on it. I didn't have a deep-well socket that big @home to knock the seal all way in--but a piece of 1-3/8" pipe and a hammer drove it right on home. Will pick up a new half-moon key- way today (old one was mushroomed where set screw goes)--clean up hub and paint. By middle of week--will have tranny refilled/filter changed and back in action!! Next time I'll buy an extra seal--fits everything here.... C-Ya!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CasualObserver 3,408 #6 Posted March 10, 2008 I use an O-Ring pick to pull the seals out. It's a double ended pick, and one end has a 90 degree bend, so if you need to you can tap on it with a small hammer to dig the pick in. It's a cheap tool, probably only a couple bucks at any auto parts store... or you could probably find something comparable at your local hardware / farm supply store too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sparky-(Admin) 21,398 #7 Posted March 10, 2008 Just picked up the seals(2) today and a new hydro tranny filter and got an O-ring pick as well. I'll start soakin the hub tomorow as I'm sure it gonna fight me to come off. If all goes well I'll be swappin seals this weekend. Thanks for the info guys. Mike......... PS..the new hydro filter actually has the Wheel Horse logo and script on it. Thought that was cool. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sparky-(Admin) 21,398 #8 Posted March 10, 2008 One more thing. The manual says to use 10w-30 or 10w-40 motor oil in the tranny. Which is the better way to go? Or is there no noticable differance between the two. Mike......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kpinnc 12,341 #9 Posted March 11, 2008 Go with whatever is in it now. You can use either ATF or oil, but you have to go 100% either way. The manual has a big stink about mixing them. Kevin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nylyon-(Admin) 7,299 #10 Posted March 11, 2008 I only use 10W30 in the 416. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glenn27 71 #11 Posted March 11, 2008 Just picked up the seals(2) today and a new hydro tranny filter and got an O-ring pick as well. I'll start soakin the hub tomorow as I'm sure it gonna fight me to come off. If all goes well I'll be swappin seals this weekend. Thanks for the info guys. Mike......... PS..the new hydro filter actually has the Wheel Horse logo and script on it. Thought that was cool. I was lucky this past weekend pulling the hub on the R/Rear--it had been leaking so long--the hub couldn't have rusted on--good thing there wasn't an EPA man lookin' around the corner--he would have gotten me for polluting... I just used a three point gear puller to get it off the key way--and then it slid right off. Cleaned it up yesterday--and when I get a chance--I'll blast the hub/repaint/ and re-assemble this weekend. I'm going back w/ ATF_Dexron, in here, because that's what I drained out... I've named this tractor "Crazy Horse" after the indian chieftian w/ the multi-colored pony--that's how this C model looks--about four different colors... Oh-well, Rome wasn't built in a day.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sparky-(Admin) 21,398 #12 Posted March 12, 2008 I guess if the hub comes off with no trouble its a good sign right? Only one night of PB Blaster in the setscrew hole and she backed right off with my 3 jaw puller. As soon as I saw the old seal I could tell it was wrecked. If you look close at the second pic you can see the rubber is split. Hopefully it comes out as easy as the hub came off. Mike......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glenn27 71 #13 Posted March 13, 2008 Looks only slightly less nasty than the one I just pulled out of a C120 (75 model) I wanted to drill and pull it out w/ a screw--slide hammer, but can't get the right angle for the drill. What I used first was an old small screwdriver that was bent on the end--that wouldn't quite do it either--I finally 'captured' the errant seal with a Craftsman brand "cotter pin puller"--and a small hammer to tap it back out. Perfect fit.!!!! Clean the axle shaft up good/smooth --and in my case--I am useing a new woodruff key--(old one was mushroomed out of proportion)--- clean up the inner slot on the hub, too--with a small file... A little 'dab' of green permatix on the key will hold it in place--while you slide the hub up--let it set up for couple hours.... The set screw is just a GR #5 bolt with a regular nut backed down on it-- Good Luck>>>>>. :thumbs: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sparky-(Admin) 21,398 #14 Posted March 13, 2008 So I have gotten the seal out with only a little grunting . But I have a new question now. How much play should there be on the rear axle. To be a little clearer, if I grab the axle and move it up and down how much should it move with the seal out? I'm tryin to decide if the roller bearings are OK before I put in the new seal. Are the bearings easy to replace? Would the tranny have to be split? Or can they be replaced from the outside like the seal? Thanks....Mike........ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TT-(Moderator) 1,145 #15 Posted March 13, 2008 If you're asking that question, there must be some noticeable movement. Technically, they should barely move. You'll feel more up & down movement vs. front to back though. (the longer the axle, the worse the play will feel) I'm gonna say the bearing shoud be replaced -- which is why the seal probably started leaking in the first place. And the answer you didn't want to hear..... No, you have to split the transmission cases and remove the axle(s) to replace the bearing(s). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sparky-(Admin) 21,398 #16 Posted March 13, 2008 CRAP!! You are right about why I asked Terry. There is some up and down slop.....a good 1/8 or more . This is not good news at all. Mike....goin into a deep funk right now ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kj4kicks 152 #17 Posted March 14, 2008 Yep Mike... that is waaaaaaay out of tolerence. Sorry ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TT-(Moderator) 1,145 #18 Posted March 14, 2008 I'm guessing the 1/8" of play is way out at the very end of the axle ???? If it is, that's not good -- but it isn't terrible either. (especially if they're the original bearings!) Clean everything up good, file the keyseat in the axle, and polish the axle with emery cloth. Pack a little hard grease in the back of the seal and put it back together. It might be a long time before you see a leak there again. :thumbs: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kpinnc 12,341 #19 Posted March 14, 2008 And I would add something Mike- If you have play in the bearings, a new seal won't do squat. It'll leak like crazy. Not what you want to hear, I'm sure. But if you let those bearings get too bad, you'll groove the axles. New axles for a D would be tough to find. The good news is opening the case and replacing the bearings is fairly easy. Nowhere near the difficulty of a mechanical tranny. Just be sure and clean the oustide up and keep any grit out of the case during replacement. Good luck! Kevin PS- Didn't see Terry's post before putting mine up. I've never tried the grease trick, but the grease won't like ATF fluid... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TT-(Moderator) 1,145 #20 Posted March 14, 2008 I'd also like to add -- that on the smaller (Sundstrand) hydros, you can actually split the transmission case with removing everything from the tractor. I'm not familiar with the D's at all, but you might be able to accomplish it the same way. (You leave the left side half with the motor, valve block, and pump attached to the frame and only pull the right side half off. Yes I know the pump on the D's are up by the engine, so you should actually have more room to do it this way -- if it can be done. ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kpinnc 12,341 #21 Posted March 14, 2008 PS- Didn't see Terry's post before putting mine up. I've never tried the grease trick, but the grease won't like ATF fluid... Nevermind Mike, I'm thinking about hydraulic fluid. You're never supposed to use grease in a true hydraulic system. If Terry says it's OK (as he did) , I would do it. Kevin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.5racer 14 #22 Posted March 14, 2008 Best to replace bearings now and not nave the shaft go bad . Did a complete rebuild on mine about three years ago . Was pretty straight forward . Let me know if ya need a drawing and parts id numbers list . If axels are worn in they can be SPRAY WELDED if the weld shp near you has the system . Our shop does and I`ve done several . Spays come in different hardnesses that can be applied and turned. Some as hard as a bearing race ( 65 rockwell I think ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.5racer 14 #23 Posted March 14, 2008 Allso its better to take out to rebuild . The weight of the housing might give you problems going back together. Use two milk crates stacked with housing on side and slide other half down on the other . Watch you gasket Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TT-(Moderator) 1,145 #24 Posted March 14, 2008 Just so this is noted for prosperity..... I am not there at Mikes to be able to feel how much play is actually there. I did just go back through and looked at the picture of the failed seal and would say that it is time for bearings. According to my information sheets, the twin cylinder D series tractor weighs around 1005 lb as new, and additional attachments would add to that base weight. Of course fluid-filled tires, wheel weights, and other related forces would no doubt be tough on the axle bearings. It's probably best to do it now and get it over with, Mike. (I personally believe that these tractor models should have had a larger diameter axles shaft and much heavier bearings.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TT-(Moderator) 1,145 #25 Posted March 14, 2008 Nevermind Mike, I'm thinking about hydraulic fluid. You're never supposed to use grease in a true hydraulic system. If Terry says it's OK (as he did) , I would do it. Kevin This one has motor oil in it Kevin, so it shouldn't wash out as quick as it would with ATF. It's a REALLY good "crutch" to make a seal hold if you're trying to "unload" something. :thumbs: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
