K321 Rebuild Part 2

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,512]

Just an update. I talked to machine shop, and they did their thing to it, i.e. turned the crank, hot tank the block, mic the cylinder and whatever else it needed. They also ordered the parts, etc. The engine is ready to be picked up, which will be tomorrow. I'm out, so far, of about $256 for parts and the machine shop work. The guy, who is a friend of mine, is supposed to do the valves and help me get everything in time.

I'm not sure if I will have the time to put everything back together this weekend and get her in the tractor. But I'm hoping, though I got to finished the bathroom Saturday.

Just wanted to let everyone know that the C-141 is closer to living again. :thumbs:

[Rollerman 290]

Sounds good Terry & also sounds like a bargain!

Keep up posted on how the new engine feels. :thumbs:

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,300]

That sounds very reasonable, did the block need to get bored? Did you go with the Kohler parts? Are you going to put the balance gears back in?

Karl with too many questions today :thumbs:

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,512]

Let me see if I can answer some of those, Karl.

I'm sure the block was bored from talking to James (he's the machine shop guy and friend). The crank was bent a little so that got fixed and the crank got turned down a bit. I will talk again with him when I go pick the engine up and find out how much damage was done to the block. They used their supply parts chain, so I need to find out where they got them from, and whether or not these are Kohler parts. I do know most of the cost was parts. The counter balance gears, I believe, will go back in as I'm not sure how much vibration a 14 hp will incur. :thumbs:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,145]

I just felt like talking about the balance gears, so here I go.....

The K series engines reciprocating assembly is balanced "as-is". There isn't really a critical need for the balance gears to be there like some folks are led to believe. (but if they're installed correctly, they do have a "purpose" in the 12hp & up singles)

As the engine displacement grew larger, the counterweights on the crankshaft and the piston/rod assemblies increased in weight. This increased weight swinging on a common axis (crankshaft) had a tendency to make the engine "jump" up and down more -- or bounce. The design of the offset-weighted counter-rotating balance gears calms, but does not fully eliminate the "bounce" effect of the rotating mass within the engine.

Just don't ever use a 12hp crankshaft in a 14 or 16 hp engine -- unless you get it re-balanced...... That is some SERIOUS vibration! :D

[Kelly 1,029]

Wouldn't you gain a little power by not having the gears in there? a little less rotating mass that all robs power. I'm sure not a great amount of power gained, but when you are talking 14hp a little is alot. I've heard stories of not getting them timed right, or the bearings going bad. So be sure to check or replace the bearings, you don't want to mess up a nice new motor.

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,512]

I do know that on engines below the K241 there were no balance gears and some K241's didn't have them. Or at least that what's the Kohler manual says. Now it there is some vibration on the K321 WITH the balance gears, how much vibration is there without them. And, I believe it was Stephen, who commented about using them when there is an isolator plate like my C-141 has.

Bottom line question would be - are they necessary for my application. :thumbs:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,145]

I do know that on engines below the K241 there were no balance gears and some K241's didn't have them. Or at least that what's the Kohler manual says. Now it there is some vibration on the K321 WITH the balance gears, how much vibration is there without them. And, I believe it was Stephen, who commented about using them when there is an isolator plate like my C-141 has.

Bottom line question would be - are they necessary for my application.

Terry,

Most K-241's didn't have them and some K-301's didn't have them.

They are a major P.I.T.A. to shim and get timed correctly unless you have done them before and/or have the timing tool. If the person that did the machine work for you knows how to do it and will help you, then, by all means, put them back in.

If the bearings are questionable -- replace them. Those gears are like little revolving grenades and have been know to exit the confines of the block without much trouble! You have already spent the time and the money to get it this far -- you might as well finish the job.

By the way -- did you buy a new governor gear too?

[kpinnc 12,368]

I know when I rebuilt my Magnum 10 (same thing internally as a K241) on my 310-8, there were no balance gears in it.

I know the comment I made previously about rubber isolated engines without balance gears came partly from what I know, and some of what I've been told. Maybe I should not have done that, as my experience with isolated engines is with a Case 444. I can't say for sure how different a C-1X1 isolation mount differs, but the 444 shakes like crazy at idle. Also, I know when those "bumpers" wear out, it amplifies the shaking!

I would agree with TT's previous post- If you check EVERYTHING out, and don't run into any problems getting them timed right, you should be fine.

But I still say balance gears do very little for vibration at anything more than idle speeds.

I'm sure your engine will be fine Terry, regardless of what you decide.

Kevin

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,512]

Well, I got the engine - it's in my shed. The machine shop did order Kohler parts.

Now, onto the balance gears. He didn't order any as he thought I wasn't putting them it. But, he said that the bearings on the ones in there are bad. So either I have to order some new bearings or leave out the balance gears. I'm in sort of a quandary as my impatience says "Leave them out!" But, I'm just not sure if that's the best route.

So.....first off, how much do the bearings cost. Second, does anyone here have a C-series with at least a 14 hp that LEFT OUT the balance gears? And how much vibration is there?

Okay, I'm leaning to order the bearings and put them back it. But, like I said, my impatience is growing as I type this. :thumbs:

[Rollerman 290]

Terry you could always reassemble it as is & run it to see what you think.

If you think the vibration is to much I think it will only take a partial tear down to put the balance gears in?

[Brrly1 1,146]

Hello Treed This is John out of Toledo. I am going to offer my two cents and it may not even be worth that. The motor we are talking about came with balance gears, at that point I myself would replace whar ever it came with. So at that point it is over said and done with. I also am learning all of this but thats how it was sent from factory and there must be some kind of reasoning behind it so replace what needs to be replaced for your own sanity and be done with it. I wished I could be more help as all of the other guys seem to have answers but only you can decide. I am also starting to feel better and hope to return to work next week. Kind of bad when you are suppose to walk around and only pick up ten lbs. Take care and Good luck John :thumbs:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,145]

The old style balance gears (with the groove around the teeth) had P/N 236506-S caged needle bearing, which are over $20 each from Kohler. (X 2)

The new style gears without the groove have a new style uncaged needle bearing (P/N 47-030-01-S) which are about $9.00 each (X 2).

I'm almost positive that the new style bearings can be used in the old gears.

Hopefully you can reuse your shims to get the end play set correctly, or you will need to find someone who has a collection of shims and "borrow" some of theirs.

They didn't use to be available seperately from Kohler, and the kit is around $20.00 just to do one gear. (Here's that P/N: 47-755-01-S)

If you choose not to install them now and decide to at a later time, you will need to disassemble the engine to the point of removing the crankshaft. It must be removed so the upper gear can be installed and to have room to set the end play.

I don't know of any short cut for installing the balance gears.

How much you will actually run this tractor should be your basis to make your decision. You probably won't even know they aren't there if you're running it at half to full throttle. (which is where it will be most of the time anyhow.) You WILL notice a substantial "bounce" at the front tires at idle speed, even with the isolator mounts -- but personally, I think that's .

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,512]

Terry you could always reassemble it as is & run it to see what you think.

If you think the vibration is to much I think it will only take a partial tear down to put the balance gears in?

I was thinking about that, but TT's right. I would have to tear down the engine to pull the crankshaft, and I'm not sure I want to do that. But....

How much you will actually run this tractor should be your basis to make your decision. You probably won't even know they aren't there if you're running it at half to full throttle. (which is where it will be most of the time anyhow.) You WILL notice a substantial "bounce" at the front tires at idle speed, even with the isolator mounts -- but personally, I think that's

Thanks, TT, for that response. I have been riding the fence on this and my answer on what to do with the balance gears changes from one moment to the next. As long as this thing doesn't shake and come apart, I don't mind a little vibration. But, I wasn't sure how much it will vibrate. You're right, I will run this thing at half to full throttle most of the time. So, I guess, I just need to make the decision and run with it. :thumbs:

[kpinnc 12,368]

Hey TT, what are the tolerances for the bearings and shafts? I've got several gears and bearings, but they are not new. They were removed from running engines. If I can find a way to check them, and they are good, then JD Terry is welcome to them. I certainly will not be using them.

Just in case he decides to put them back in, may save a buck or three...

Kevin

[TT-(Moderator) 1,145]

Hey TT, what are the tolerances for the bearings and shafts? I've got several gears and bearings, but they are not new. They were removed from running engines. If I can find a way to check them, and they are good, then JD Terry is welcome to them. I certainly will not be using them.

Just in case he decides to put them back in, may save a buck or three...

Kevin

The serviceable limit on the stub shafts is .4996". (They are .500" new)

I guess the only way to check the needle bearings would be to wiggle them on a "good" stub shaft in an engine or a piece of .500" tool steel or shaft.

I also have some other information that I will scan and post on here. (too much to type )

[TT-(Moderator) 1,145]

OK.... here it is -- directly out of the Kohler book.

(notice that the bearings DO NOT interchange! oops! )

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,512]

Hey TT, what are the tolerances for the bearings and shafts? I've got several gears and bearings, but they are not new. They were removed from running engines. If I can find a way to check them, and they are good, then JD Terry is welcome to them. I certainly will not be using them.

Just in case he decides to put them back in, may save a buck or three...

Kevin,

If they're good, that would be great. But, I guess it might be hard to ascertain if they're good or not after reading TT's post.

OK.... here it is -- directly out of the Kohler book.

(notice that the bearings DO NOT interchange! oops!

TT,

After you posted your original post yesterday, I pulled out the manual that I downloaded and saw the same thing. I'm thinking I got the old gears, but the downloadable version of this manual isn't the greatest. Most of the pictures are blurred and hard to see. :thumbs:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,145]

Any better ?

[Brrly1 1,146]

Hello Treed I vote you should just go ahead and replace the gears for you own sanity. Quit beating your head against the wall and just be done with it.Kohler put them there for a reason. There is always going to be that time when you want to pull or push something or even mow some tall gass,or even that moment when you want to turn the r's up.The bill with TT got to be getting pretty expensive by now ,you probably at least owe him a coke Have a great day John

:thumbs:

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,512]

Okay,

I made my decision, rather it be right or wrong. I'm going to leave the balance gears out. If I can not notice a difference at full throttle and I WILL notice it at low idle, I can live with that. If I decide that I can not live with the vibration at low idle, then I will pull it and put them back in. The only thing here is that I'm going to get new engine mounts as to try and reduce the shake, rattle and roll. I found these and I really can't tell if the engine mounts are any good, so I sent Joe an email asking him how good they were:

C-105 Engine Mount

John,

I would put them back in, but I'm not that confident of getting them timed and getting them shimmed properly. I studied the manual and it does seem to be a little complicated, especially for this old Missourian. :thumbs:

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,300]

I thought for sure you were going to go with putting them back in too. It will be just fine without them I am sure.

[Brrly1 1,146]

From what the guys say you should be fine. Myself, if I was putting that much money into a motor I would probably just spend the money and put it behind me. I hope it works John :thumbs:

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,512]

From what the guys say you should be fine. Myself, if I was putting that much money into a motor I would probably just spend the money and put it behind me. I hope it works John

Yeah, I hear ya. And that was what made my decision hard. With a new rebuild and a few dollars in, why not put it back together with the way it came out originally. But, I believe Kohler put these in to make some of their cliental happy as it's not a good selling point to see an engine bounce up and down.

Karl,

Yeah, I have been flip-flopping so much on this little decision that I probably lean towards putting them back in several times. But, I think, with the complication of getting them right, that I think I'll leave them out. I will replace those bad engine mounts though. :D

[Rollerman 290]

Terry I don't think you'll ever miss them & as a benefit your putting that fraction of power back into the scrank.

Your tractors engine may be a little more animated do to the vibration plate....hard saying?

But I'd leave them out....I have a lot of puller friends in my area that tell me to yank them on my K series.