Question On Changing Oil In Hydro

[HorseFixer 2,012]

I ordered a new AMSOIL fiter for the Hydro in my C-120 and plan on dumping all that dino glue out and changing it over to AMSOIL synthetics. My question is what is the best way to drain "ALL" the fluid out? I would think it is helpfull to have the Hydro warm and if so how would you go about this other than running it? It's raining here like cats N dogs and suppose to continue for a couple days so would like to keep the tractor dry in the garage. Any tricks on getting all the oil out of the hydro lines or will some still be left in there like an Auto tranny with lube in the torque converter? Any suggestions would be appreciated. :hide:

[WH_Hobie 1]

put some atf in it

run it around a little bit

drain it out

put ams oil synthetic in it and watch it work like new

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,414]

I'm not sure how your gonna get it ALL out since your changing the type of fliud in it. I was allways under the impression that some old fliud stays behind in the lines/cylinder and stuff. You may want to try tipping it up and sideways while its draining and disconnect the lines and let them drip out.

You definitly want to get it hot so stop being a sissy and get out in the rain and run it hard till the trannys hot.

Mike........

[KyBlue 655]

Now is when you need your cab...least you'd be dry!

[hodge 6]

Compressed air in one of the lines, to push the old oil out?

[can whlvr 993]

ive had one of these apart before and i think it will be impossible to get all of it out of the chambers and charge pump,i dont know how much oil can remain and be safe,if you change it do it twice,that might help.

[wheel horse 1045 2]

well can an automatic be flushed with keroseen first to clean it out then change the oil after ?

[HorseFixer 2,012]

Thanks guys for your input! I don't think I want to add anything that doesn't belong in there, just because of just what you all said "There is prolly no way to get it all out" and I don't want something like kerosene left in there to thin the film strength of the lubricant I will be using. Switching to synthetics will defiantly tell me if the tractor will require "warming up in order to move" like I have heard so many times, and alot of guys don't like using autos for that reason My tractor stays in a 40deg garage but I will purposely leave it outside overnight to see if zero degrees has any Ill effects on the AMSOIL that I will be using. I can understand why using Dino Earl has this effect on the tranny's in cold weather. At 60 degrees below zero Dino oil freezes as hard as a ROCK AMSOIL still pours at this temperature. Hey I don't care what it takes! If using WHALE SPERM made the Auto Tranny shift better I would use it, plain and simple! I will let you guys know how it works. Last night I installed my 75 lb LEAD WHEEL WEIGHTS a friend gave me that came off his Deere. after I finished, I was doing some thinking (Yeah I do that now and then ) and I decided to put my 1000 watt quarts light and shine it on the rear end, I figure I would use Sparkys advice and warm it up before draining, we all know that works best on engines when draining oil, so why not a tranny! Well I just looked outside and the garage hasn't burnt down so I guess I'm good!

Now A Question On Earl Filters?

I have heard that you have to use WH oil filters because they have some kind of special check or relief valve in them. Well if any of you have been to my Website Wolverine Synthetics Filter Cut Away Comparison Page I have cut open about 30 top brand oil filters and altho there are differences in filter media, restriction, and so forth they all have anti drain back valves But I cant see why using an AMSOIL filter would not work in this application. AMSOIL'S cross reference for this filter is an EAO40. One thing for sure I will cut the WH filter open and let you all know what I find! I know some filter BY-Pass when they get plugged DUH...... yeah ..... better.... that Dirty oil gets to your engine than no oil at all! If thats all it is then NO WORRIES an AMSOIL filter lasts about 6 times longer anyways so I don't see that being an Issue. Anyways I will let You all know how this turns out and get pictures later! If anyone has any info or anything to add on this filter thingy please add it cause I am unclear on this info!

[Nick 13]

The hydro filters do not have the bypass valve. It it did it could allow contaminates into the hydro. The hydro filter can plug and slow but wont bypass.

[JimD 3,345]

hey duke, if ya have a torpedo heater, you could warm it up with that, but...

Whale Sperm?

might have to call this one... Moby Horse :hide:

[can whlvr 993]

when i got my c160 it had a regular filter on it and ihad to rebuild the unit,i got away with 350 bucks,didnot need too many parts,so i agree USE a hydro filter,not an engine filter!sounds like your c120 will be quite a snow removal machine duke.

[HorseFixer 2,012]

Let me first say that I have cut MANY filters apart to analize the difference between them. And in this case I did quite a bit of research to see the difference and wound up cutting the Wheel Horse Filter apart to see for myself what was inside. Lets first look at an AMSOIL filter exploded component view to see what a filter looks like. Most filters are made similar to this filter other than the media which in a conventional filter is normally cheap cellulose fiber media (PAPER).

Now that we know the components of an Oil filter, lets look how the oil flows. The oil enters the filter into the small holes. Behind these holes is a component called an Anti-Drain valve. What this component does is open like an umbrella when pressure is applied. When pressure stops it closes and keeps the oil (Dirty Oil) from draining back into the engine, In this case the (Automatic Transmission). I found it it very weird that the Wheel Horse filter did not have an anti-drain valve installed?

As you can see by the Picture above the Wheel Horse Filter clearly has larger and more intake openings than the AMSOIL filter! this is the first time that I have ever seen this! Normally the AMSOIL filter is superior in this category. Since it requires pressure to open a Anti-Drain valve it is apparent to me Wheel Horse opted not to install the Anti Drain Valve because it has a cetain amount of restriction. Since this transmission is fluid drive they need all the flow they can get. What happens when the tractor stops? Dirty oil flows back in the transmission! This dissapoints me! Why would wheel horse choose not to install a bypass valve but yet choose not to install an Anti-Drain Valve? In my opinion thats kinda counter productive! It is apparent to me that Wheel Horse is all about flow, and not filtration. Since the tractor is indeed a Fluid drive transmission I would not install an after market Oil Filter because it may have too much restriction. I would stick with the Wheel Horse filter in this case but I would deffinatley install a good quality Synthetic oil to keep wear to a minimum. It is evident that this setup requires superior lubrication being the filtration setup is less than adequate! <_< Yes this filter is totally different than any you will find out there!

[Sarge 3,463]

Drainback shouldn't be a problem in the hydro units since they use a very fine screen (at least on the Sundstrand's) at the pickup point in the case.

I know many other filters have been tried before (done it myself too), the OEM WH filter just seems to work better.

Sarge

[wheel horse 1045 2]

are you going to clean the inner filter also

[HorseFixer 2,012]

are you going to clean the inner filter also

Archie I have no problem with the tractor at this point. And by switching to Synthetics it is highly detergent and will pretty much clean any mung ad drool off the screen I think. I am running out of time maybe I will do the screen thing this spring.

Sarge I know what yer saying but as I mentioned that is counter productive for an Oil filter to catch debris and then after the engine shuts off, and pump stops for the dirty oil to drain back down in the tranny, screen or no screen. What kind of half baked deal is that? Whoever designed that, needs their head examined! A screen will only catch large shavings and particles its the small ones that causes wear. :hide:

[Sarge 3,463]

Well, think of it this way - if there is anything large in there, the screen stops it. When shutting down, that cycle pushes the debris off the screen to prevent it from plugging up . The only real thing they are missing is a good solid magnet .

Sarge

[HorseFixer 2,012]

Well, think of it this way - if there is anything large in there, the screen stops it. When shutting down, that cycle pushes the debris off the screen to prevent it from plugging up . The only real thing they are missing is a good solid magnet .

Sarge

Good Idea! Wonder if they make magnetic plugs in that size! Might have to PU a couple maggets and get the epoxy out! It would be my luck they would come un gooed and muck my tranny up! :ychain:

[wh500special 2,237]

I missed this thread when it was hot, but have a couple minor things to add:

I don't think any drainback valve is needed in these instances since the filters are "downhill" of any pressure or gravity situation that would allow dirt to find its way back into anything important. The filter is the last stop for the oil before it just pours back into the transaxle case so there is no driver to push the oil backwards thru the system.

I've had a couple Sunstrands apart and have had mixed experiences with the suction screen. One unit I pulled apart had the screen separated from its mounting point and it was laying inside the case. That transmission miraculously worked perfectly. Another had a screen with holes poked thru it while another was in 100% perfect shape although pretty clogged with debris.

It's been awhile, but I thought the screens did have a magnetized tip on them? I might be confusing this with something else.

I am not impressed with the screen. Compared to a paper filter, the mesh on the screen is pretty open. And being on the intake side of the pump it seems that the potential exists to suck in some fine debris and wreck the pump and motor in fast order. It's too bad a replaceable filter element wasn't incorporated on the suction side.

IF you ever have a hydro system removed from the transaxle case it would be a great idea to thoroughly cleanse all of the accumulated schmutz out of the case before putting it back together. 30 years of use has a way of hiding little pieces of gear shavings, dirt, bugs, cigarette butts, Nixon tapes and other things that might make their way into the pump. But you gotta be thorough since you don't want to resuspend anything and make it available to get susked back in.

I have found that it can sometimes be difficult to refill a Sundstrand transmission on a C or D thru the dipstick hole. With a funnel jammed in there you have probably found that there is no escape path for the air and that the filling takes a long time. So what to do?

Leave the filter off and let its mount be the vent path for the air. Fill the case by pouring into the dipstick hole until you either get close to the capacity of the system or the fluid starts to overflow out of the filter mount. Tighten up the filter and fill it the rest of the way.

Might not work for everyone, but it seems to save me the overflow mess that happens when my funnel runneth over or a bubble of air burps oil out leaving me with a perpetually dripping tractor.

Finally, regarding replacing all the fluid and doing a switchover from ATF to oil (or vice versa):

I'm of the opinion that mixing the fluid types really isn't that big of a deal since both are capable of providing the necessary lubrication properties and their primary purpose in the system is just to transfer energy from the pump to the motor. They will mix just fine and not separate and there are no chemical reactions to worry about. Shoot, vegetable oil, bacon grease, and water would probably work. Well...

That said, I don't think you should casually interchange the two when topping off levels. Just don't obsess over residual that might be left inside when doing a changeover.

But if you do want to exchange one for the other why not start by removing the filter and draining the transaxle case. Then refill the case - leaving the filter OFF and a bucket stuck underneath the outlet/mount - and start the engine. As the engine runs the new fluid will be pulled from the transaxle case, thru the system, and will then dump out the filter mount into your bucket. Continue replacing the fluid being lost with new fluid and work the lift mechanism(s) until you're confident you got the bulk of the old fluid out of the system. Stop the pump, replace the filter, and top off.

Never done it, but I don't know why it wouldn't work. Might be a bit messy, so this is probably something to try in your neighbor's driveway instead of your own. And perhaps it would be a good idea to remove the spark plugs and use the starter motor instead of the engine so the process doesn't run away on you.

I prefer motor oil as my hydro fluid since it is cheaper and I always have it on hand, but from what I have seen - and others have said - ATF actually seems to maintain a cleaner system inside. The only hydro I have that still is using ATF is my 18-Auto and it isn't due for a change for a long time, but i do intend to use the above idea to make the switch when the time comes. Doubtful that you'll ever completely purge the lift cylinders this way, but I see no problems from that.

Steve

[kpinnc 12,573]

It's been awhile, but I thought the screens did have a magnetized tip on them?

Yes they do. Makes getting the tiny shavings out of the screen a PITA as well.

I know there are plenty of places where we could sharp shoot WH engineers if we chose to, but they must have done a few things right when it came to hydrostatic transmissions. In my opinion (not that it counts for much), the Sundstrand trannies were far superior to any of the Eatons. I have several Eatons, so I can't knock them, but I have to wonder if they will still be pulling like a Sundstrand will today after 40+ years of hard service. You won't find as many hydro Cubs or anything else that old in the kinds of numbers that WH still has out there either.

The hydro filter does seem to be in an odd part of the circuit, as Steve said- it filters fluid AFTER passing through the pump. But, the Eaton units did the same thing, so either there was a reason for doing it, or it was never considered an issue that needed to be changed.

Any time I get started on a tractor project, there is always some part of the mechanics of these machines that makes me scratch my head and wonder why it was done the way it was. But at the same time, as long as it works, I'm not gonna question it.

Perhaps the lack of a drain-back valve is there for a reason. I would go with WH OEM filters, and leave well enough alone. If there is a reason for this configuration, then changing it could have expensive results.

Kevin

[Brrly1 1,146]

Alrighty then, I now have a question for all of the minds that actually read these posts. My question is now that all of the motor oils have dropped the zinc from there oils is there any danger in adding the new oils? Should it be treated just like the motors and add the zinc to the oil or go with adding the Rotella just like I have in all of my tractors. Reason being these trans are not setup with roller bearings or at least I don't believe they are. I believe there is alot of rubbing going on inside of these transmissions and beings the zinc is no longer present. My question is what do I do as far as adding new oil for a change over. I already know what filter I am going to use, Duke has already proven that. Superior minds lets see what you have to say.

:wh:

[Dresden Guy 24]

I not the "Superior" mind you were alluding to, but back to the filters for cars that have a bypass. Isn't the bypass basically installed so that people who don't change their oil filters with every oil change, that as the back-pressure from a dirty and clogged filter, will still keep oil flowing to the engine albeit unfiltered and maybe laden with metal particulates, etc??. The anti-backflow valve seals the flow so that the oil either has to go throught the element or be forced aut via the bypass - right???

The hydro unit on a WH is for all intents and purposes a "sealed" unit that has much less chance to get contaminated and dirty, whereas a car oil system has a far greater potential for dirt and and metal particles to be entrained in the lubricating process.

Also, isn't the hydro almost a "hermetically" sealed unit like an AC compressor? If my old college physics serve me correct, a car engine filter is operating with a much greater flow rate and at much less pressure that a hydrostatic transmission. A hydro may operate in the range of 1500 - 2500 psi, but at a lesser flow rate. A hydraulic/hydrostatic mechanism requires very close tolerances for shifting and for hydraulic lifting.

Maybe I'm all wet, but a hydro unit filter shouldn't need a anti-drainback valve since the filter element in theory would not be so clogged as to push it backwards, and it for the same reason it doesn't use a bypass. I may be confusing myself, but it seems that an anti-drain back serves to maximize the flow of oil through the filter element, assuming it's still not clogged, and if it the filter element is dirty and clogged, then the bypass will send the the oil back to the engine - even though it's still unfiltered and dirty!

If all of my rambling is incorrect, please help me to better understand "hydro filtering" vs. "car engine filtering" - whereas filtering is the only similarity between the two. They are two, totally different mechanical systems.

Just my

[Brrly1 1,146]

Ok, this comes no where close to what I have asked. Do we need to switch our oils in the trans like we have in the motor do to the zinc additive has been taken out of the new motor oils. They are now being produced for roller bearings, cams and what not. I know that there are things rubbing (plates,etc;) inside these transmissions. Do we need to stick with a motor oil that has the zinc additive? That is my question.

:wh:

[Brrly1 1,146]

Bump! Possibly too many moving parts for someone to answer.

:thumbs:

[Jim_M 178]

I've been trying to find an answer for you John, but I'm not coming up with much. I called our supplier for industrial lubes and was told that the formulation for hydraulic and transmission oils has not been changed.

That would lead me to think that these systems still need the anti wear additives. I think you're on the right track. If you use motor oil in your hydro, Shell Rotella can't hurt a thing as long as you're sticking with the same weight.

I think that's what I'll use the next time a do an oil change in any of the hydros that have motor oil in them.

[Brrly1 1,146]

Jim, ok so I should use the 10w30 next time I do an oil change in my hydro's. You said nothing has changed in the trans. fluid. Then the early GT's should be fine that run the trans. fluid. I do have a couple of them that also have the motor oil. Thanks for the info. Loader is almost done.

:wh: