HorseFixer 2,013 #101 Posted November 16, 2009 Duke, Great sheet metal work, the ducting is looking good! Just a thought, instead of a passive air delivery system what if you placed a booster fan in the collar of the heat collector box? It would work as a shut off as well? You have room on that switch box for another, right? Can't wait to see this in action! Jerry, I have been working on controlling temperature in one form or another since 1977 for 32 years. I Have been a licensed HVAC contractor State Of Michigan since 1981. I Was in business for myself for 10 years until starting at the county (Jail) in 1991. I have researched small 3" fans and the best I have found produces around 80 CFM. That is about what I am getting through the duct without a fan. You don't want to move the air to fast because you want to have contact time with the air to the heated surface in order to transfer that heat. High CFM is not always better. In this case there has to be a lot of consideration most especially in placement of the fan. You mentioned placing the fan at the output of the collector box. The temperature at that point may be to hot and may prematurely burn up the fan. If you think about it most fans are placed ahead of the heat exchanger or in this case would be the cylinder head. Well the flywheel is my fan, there is no place to install a fan around the flywheel ahead of the cylinder. In this case (see Pics) I am getting between 150 to 160 deg air on the discharge and putting that kind of heat on that fan may be a bit to warm and may overheat the fan mtr. I am very happy with the results of the airflow and temperature that I am getting out of the 3" silicone duct. I am going to have to have some modifications done and a round hole cut and sewn into the Cab Skirting for the heat duct. I have heard guys spoke and say how warm they are inside these cabs. Well I am not doubting that but I cannot see how the heat gets into the cab without modifications like this being done! I like the way the damper control turned out I will hook the up to a control cable and this will give me a positive control of the heat needed. Here are some pics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbradley68 1 #102 Posted November 16, 2009 Given the close proximity of your heating system to the exhaust system you may want to consider a Carbon Monoxide detector in the cab (or not). Even though it's not likely to happen and you may have enough ventilation in the cab it would only take a small failure in the exhaust system to give you some grief from CO in the cab. Murphy's Law tends to pop up when you least expect it. copied from Wiki..... Concentration Symptoms 35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure 100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours 200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment 400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours 800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours 1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, tachycardia, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours 3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes. 6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes. 12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2-3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HorseFixer 2,013 #103 Posted November 16, 2009 Given the close proximity of your heating system to the exhaust system you may want to consider a Carbon Monoxide detector in the cab (or not). That is a good thought and I will try one however even tho the exhaust is close to the heat collector box, the heat collector box is pressurized and should blow any CO away from that area since it gets its air on the opposite side of the engine. But your right probably would never happen because of the dilution factor, but would not hurt to have one. :notworthy: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Curmudgeon 28 #104 Posted November 16, 2009 I only have one consideration. The ductwork is going to slow the air flow between the valves and cylinder, that's the "hole" through the engine. I know it's cold air in winter, but what happens when you close that damper? I don't see any provision for air to be easily let through. The flywheel doesn't make any real pressure, the air has to have an easy way across the fins It's possible, cold air and all, to wind up with a very hot spot in your engine, and you'll soon be sidelined with the trickest snow machine in the MidWest. Then again, some engines never get cleaned, wind up pretty well plugged in that area anyway, and survive. For a while at least. Just something to think about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerry w 2 #105 Posted November 17, 2009 Nice job Duke! Hey, I was in HVAC for 18yrs. in No. CA. too! And then ran a shop for several years after! Small world!! That's cool, or hot, depending on need of course! I was thinking of some sort of small blower/fan that I used in pellet stove repairs that have a high heat theshold, but heck, your getting great temps without and I was concerned with Fast airflow on the motor fins. You have, however, as always, already ridden that horse to the stable! Really nice sheetmetal work, and now I know why!! :thumbs: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wh500special 2,248 #106 Posted November 17, 2009 I have heard guys spoke and say how warm they are inside these cabs. Well I am not doubting that but I cannot see how the heat gets into the cab without modifications like this being done! It's mostly just a function of keeping the breeze and melting snowflakes off you that keeps you from losing as much body heat. I never spent a long enough time inside the cab to need heat but with all the toys you've installed I am betting you'll be cleaning until you run out of gas. I do have two questions though: 1. No actuator for the damper? Come on Duke, you must have an amp or two left!!! 2. Summer is just 7 months away, have you worked out the details on the AC yet? Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cwilson 0 #107 Posted November 17, 2009 Looks like fun. But I have a question. What's snow? I'm still mowing grass.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Suburban 550 28 #108 Posted November 17, 2009 Nice job my friend. I would sort of have to agree with Dale about resricting the air flow with the damper. It is something to think about. You don't want to end up overheating the engine. Just my opinion. Otherwise, everything looks great. :notworthy: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickv1957 72 #109 Posted November 17, 2009 Duke,nice fab work there ,your ready for the snow!,Rick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HorseFixer 2,013 #110 Posted November 17, 2009 I only have one consideration. The ductwork is going to slow the air flow between the valves and cylinder, that's the "hole" through the engine. I know it's cold air in winter, but what happens when you close that damper? I don't see any provision for air to be easily let through. The flywheel doesn't make any real pressure, the air has to have an easy way across the fins It's possible, cold air and all, to wind up with a very hot spot in your engine, and you'll soon be sidelined with the trickest snow machine in the MidWest. Then again, some engines never get cleaned, wind up pretty well plugged in that area anyway, and survive. For a while at least. Just something to think about. Thanks Guy's! Now onto the subject on Airflow Yep. I know what you are saying and to the average person that would make sense, but there is a few things that you are not considering. When you mentioned that many engines get plugged up and last for awhile you have to consider that I am not plugging anything up here. Packing fins full of grass clippings to where they can move 0 ZERO air is a far cry from diverting airflow. If you notice in the pictures below. I am allowing many, many places for air to escape, through the blank offs around the fins, Holes in and around the scoop by the exhaust pipe. When you block the airflow out the shutter, much of that air will go to those areas I mentioned from the back pressure. There is more back pressure off the flywheel than you think. I have dealt with controlling heat and airflow most of my life and the air off a fan in this case flywheel will take the path of least resistance (THROUGH THE DAMPER) once the damper is closed it will exit out any place it can. As Dale mentioned blocking off airflow through fins completely would be detrimental to the engine I AGREE! A good example of this as he mentioned would be the fins packed full of grass clippings ZERO AIRFLOW. I will give some accurate tests on this. I will take heat temp readings around the head with my infrared thermometer after engine is running for 15 minutes, and then I will take temp readings with damper closed for 15 minutes! I would guess you will see an increase of around 10 degrees, but nothing detrimental to the Engine. And furthermore, Its times like these that I sure am glad my tractors are fully protected with AMSOIL to prevent thermal runaway! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HorseFixer 2,013 #111 Posted November 18, 2009 Well yesterday evening I went over to a fellow WH Bud's house and he had a Hydraulic Cylinder the same type I had non repairable <_< but It didn't look like a leaker so for 20.00 buckaroos I thought I would give it a whirl. I worked on it last night and tonight I finished it up! Works pretty good and lifts the blower about 3" higher I never paid much attention how far the cylinder stroked out but this one gives me the "FULL MONTY" Well all seems good an no leaks that I can see hopefully it will stay that way! Well after finishing that task I decided to do the Temperature Readings like I had mentioned earlier. I did this test to the best of my ability, without unbiased results. I wanted tru facts, I will not sacrifice an engine just to try and prove a point on this forum. The outdoor temperature was 46.3 degrees. I had the damper wide open and I ran the tractor at full throttle starting at 6:45 p.m. and ran it till 7:02 p.m. for 17 minutes. I Then recorded 6 temperature readings 299, 287, 288, 289, 292, 298, I then shut the Damper and ran the engine full throttle from 7:05 till 7:21 16 minutes and then took 5 temperature readings 289, 289, 289, 289, 290, (I thought I took 6) (Side Note: All readings were taken on a head bolt on the right side of the spark plug exhaust port side of the engine.) this was the hottest spot I could find on the engine, so that what I went for. Averaging those 6 readings with damper wide open was 292.166666 deg Averaging the 5 readings with damper full closed was 289.2 deg a difference of 2.96 deg it actually ran almost 3 deg cooler! I cannot explain this, other than possibly the air was directed back thru the fins by the exhaust side? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wh500special 2,248 #112 Posted November 18, 2009 Duke, Like you, I'm full of...knowledge ...so could probably make up some reason you got the results you did, but 3 degrees F on 300 degrees is only a 1% difference and given the data scatter I think we can say that for all practical purposes the results were equal. (OK, in absolute terms (Rankin scale) it is more like a half percent difference....). You might run into different results when under load and the airflow is curtailed (slower engine speed) but the tractor is working harder (burning significantly more fuel), so you might want to do a sanity check again during your first heavy snowfall. And, it might not be a bad idea to put a piece of black electrical tape or something with higher emissivity on that head bolt and zoom way in on the target to make sure you're not averaging too much background in your scan. I think what you might have proved here is that you're going to have a nice system come cold weather! Stay warm! Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HorseFixer 2,013 #113 Posted November 18, 2009 Thanks Steve, yeah I didnt expect labratory results and I tried to keep the distance of instrument the same and so forth. I have the same instrumentation at work and have found it to be within 1% of a contact type. Yes I think what I have shown is indeed that there is no damage being done whatsoever to the engine. Running a kohler at Full throttle the heat in the cast iron would have traveled and dispearsed throughout the entire engine and I would have seen it by my measurements. As I mentioned, I will not sacrifice an Engine no matter what the results. I mentioned this test to my Small engine doode and he told me Last night on the way home from work when I stopped off at his place... (Quote) Ya know yer gonna get temps around 300 degrees at the head! (end of Quote). Old Fart was right! :notworthy: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coadster32 793 #114 Posted November 18, 2009 Proof is in the pudding. Can't argue with facts. Good job (as usual) If it isn't enough heat, you could always install a duct fan. :notworthy: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chazm 413 #115 Posted November 18, 2009 If it isn't enough heat, you could always install a duct fan. Or do like the rest of us poor slobs & just put on a heavier coat. :thumbs: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim_M 178 #116 Posted November 19, 2009 I would imagine the rectifier will put off enough heat to keep him warm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerry w 2 #117 Posted November 19, 2009 The only thing left to do in this piece of art work is to install a small flat screen tv so you don't miss the game on the tv while having seat time in your heated cab with your warm, eh, coco??? Really well done Duke. :thumbs: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Confused99 2 #118 Posted November 19, 2009 The only thing left to do in this piece of art work is to install a small flat screen tv so you don't miss the game on the tv while having seat time in your heated cab with your warm, eh, coco??? Really well done Duke. With a rear view camera that switches automatically when it is put in reverse Jason Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duff 206 #119 Posted November 19, 2009 With a rear view camera that switches automatically when it is put in reverse Jason ....and a killer stereo for when there's not crap on the TV!...... Duff :WRS: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KyBlue 655 #120 Posted November 19, 2009 Jeez, With all this added electronics, he'll need to tow a generator behind him... Guess Traction wont be a problem thou, but the cost of Fuel for the tractor, and the generator... might get a bit much! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
truckin88 104 #121 Posted November 19, 2009 Duke, I ended up making a deal with stevebo, and he got my cab, maybe he'll post a pic of it on, but I wanted to let you know, that wally world (walmart) has LED 4" oblong lights that will replace our stockers, for $7.00 in the trailer section. They are made by blazer, and LED might save you some power consumption. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HorseFixer 2,013 #122 Posted November 19, 2009 You Guy's are KILLING ME! OK, movin right along Snow is about here, and I can't have as good a Laugh as you guys cause I froze My Azz off last year and It is still fresh in my mind <_< Okay tonight was getting a control made up for the Heater control, As always it would have been easier if I would have known what and How I was going to do the heater and so forth but I end up doing things several times before the project is over. I guess thats part of building something like this from scratch and doing a bunch of R&D to make things fit! Well I decided the best place to add a control & Easiest would be next to all the other controls and it would be a Pull Type simple Choke Control. (Sorry Steve WH 500 Special, No Servo Actuator Control!) Well I ended up having to take the entire switch box off and mount because I needed to weld a side tab on the SS mount! I welded a tab off the side of the mount out of a scrap piece off SS. I had drilled a hole for the control in the center and routed the cable and installed Fuel line over the steel cable to keep moisture out. Pulling the control full out gives full heat, pushing the control in shuts off the heat. I also a SS bolt in the top of the Control tube housing and this hits the damper and makes a stop so the damper doesn't go past full open. Here are some pics of tonights work tomorrow will be painting the door wire framework on the edges of the doors. This will be slow cause I will have to mask off around the Vinyl so I don't get paint all over it! NOTE: You can also see the external fuse holder with sealed rubber cover on the exterior of the control box in picture 1, this presently has a 20 amp fuse installed and will be reduced to 15 once all lights are converted to LED. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Curmudgeon 28 #123 Posted November 20, 2009 As Steve mentioned, sitting there running a full throttle, under no load, is probably going to give the lowest temperatures. Think about it, no load, equals little heat produced, yet, the highest rate of air flow. Yeah I know, now you're gonna make a liar out of me and go check it after being at a dead idle for 20 minutes. Might be interesting to know... I'm running on basic instinct here, and we all know what we see when we sit back and cross our legs on that one! Any air flow is probably sufficient, so long as you use Amsoil that is....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HorseFixer 2,013 #124 Posted November 20, 2009 As Steve mentioned, sitting there running a full throttle, under no load, is probably going to give the lowest temperatures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captjake 1 #125 Posted November 20, 2009 Hey Duke, Looks good. My girlfriend's mother lives in Dowagiac. I think thats not to far from you. We might have to visit you and the herd sometime. I had an idea. In the summer leave the cab on and put in a window A/C unit to cool it when mowing the grass. :notworthy: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
