Abandoned Rail Road Right of Ways

[Beap52 1,075]

There seems to be a goodly amount of knowledge and experience around here.  Here's what my brother and I are discussing:

 

Along the back of the farm is an abandoned rail road right of way.  It was abandoned in the 1960's and nothing remains other than the grade work, trees, brush and fencing.  The land is unusable for our needs and other than preventing someone from purchasing it and doing with it who knows what. We are considering adding it to our farm.  By using Google Earth measurements it's roughly 88 feet wide and 3,500 feet long and is somewhere in the area of 8 acres.  The neighboring farm on one side apparently bought the right of way many years ago.  The farms on the other side don't own the right of way so the right of way is accessible via county road.

 

We've located the current owning Railroad. They tell us they have a deed and the land is for sale.  Minimum price is $5,000/ fair market value which ever is higher.  In addition they charge a $2.500 processing fee and buyer pays for title work and survey. The adjoining neighbor has expressed some interest in sharing the cost and land to add to his farm.

 

We found it interesting that the folks at the courthouse don't know who owned the right of way or anything about it other than it's an abandoned piece of rail road.  Apparently, no one has been paying taxes?

 

Has anyone experience with this type of transaction? 

[adsm08 2,469]

Not around my neck of the woods. The state park dept would ave snapped that up for a rail trail as soon as the first tax payment was a day late.

[WHX?? 50,087]

Snowmobile or ATV trail in this neck of the woods. 

 

2500 sounds a little high for a "processing fee". 

 

Sounds like someone at the courthouse is just too lazy to look it up. 

Does your county have a GIS website/map? That will tell you who has been paying taxes on it and who holds the deed. It should also give a fair market. 

[Lane Ranger 11,075]

 

 

The Penn Central Railroad  (the Combined New York Central and Pennsylvania RR) had over 125 Vice Presidents at one time.  Most of the Vice Presidents dealt with real estate issues with local governments, states, corporations and adjacent landowners.   My parents home and an 1854 railroad running behind their property,  In 1973 the railroad was qabanondones.  Just as Beap52 indicates the adjacent landowners (actually split down center to both sides or as two parcels in Indiana) were offered to the adjacent landowner.   Our property had horses and a steel pipe welded fence around  the back.   We use to use the right a way as a horse riding area.   The adjacent neighbors -across the tracks. Pete and George had a vegetable farm raising the best peppers and cabbages around.  Plus they had a hear of coats they let  run in the railroad right a way to eat the grasses.

 

Dad did not buy the land that the railroad offered.  Neither did the neighbor across the tracks.   Weeds about ten inches thick now cover that area after growing thru the contaminated blast area.      Dad was a blacksmith though and to this day I still have boxes of railroad spikes that we gather along the right a way after the rails and ties were removed.

 

Generally, I believe that as Beap52 describe that is the way the rail laws work and their real estate offices hold title to the property,

 

 

[Beap52 1,075]

One of my favorite bike trails is a rails to trails.  The farmers didn't appreciate not having the opportunity to utilize the the old railroad.  There are several crossings that divide farms up which requires a farmer to pass through two gates to access their land on each side of the trail.  It is also a good place to hunt mushrooms.  There are 16 bridges in our county on the old right of way.  Neat ride but I sympathize with farmers.

 

I just now looked at the GIS map and the railroad property is unlisted at who is the owner fortunately we have located the rail company, All other property owners are identified except for that strip of land.  

 

From the "Sales Application":  All sales are by Quitclaim Deed with the buyer responsible for all closing costs.  Also, BNSF charges a $2,500.00 administrative fee for all sales, easements, releases, etc. above the sale price. 

 

We are  wondering if it's worth the effort.  From what I've been reading this can get quite murky quickly.  I'm hoping someone will chime in with "We've went through the same process and it wasn't bad."

 

Thanks for replies.

 

[Brockport Bill 1,794]

my career included dealing with the "abandoned" RR issues you outlined multiple times - in very complex circumstances and transactions - and large sums of dollars, as well as negotiated acquisitions and eminent domain proceedings. I am not a lawyer, therefore don't take what insights I provide as legal advice. First, its important to know the controlling laws can likely vary state to state - as well as by locality. Secondly, the policies and governance by the railroad corporations and their successors likely vary. Moreover, there can potentially be some jurisdictional issues involving federal transportation entities/agencies oversight of old or abandoned railroad corridors and property of which typically local officials or a local attorney would not likely know how to navigate or have the necessary expertise.

I believe there should in fact be a record of the deed and/or the right of way in the county land records - it may be challenging to locate and may go back many years - as well as have changed ownership entities numerous times, however, I believe the legal owner  ( or ROW ) should be able to be traced. You have the option of asking the County Clerk or Recorder to do the research however title searches are typically paid for professional services of which you hire a lawyer ( or better ) hire a title company who has this " title " research as a specialty. Once you identify the owner entity then of course it's a negotiation like any land transfer. Frankly, I would not suggest any land "deal " be done without legal guidance representing your interests. The fact is you won't live forever and if you or a neighbor wants a "clean title or ROW rights of access" that is documented and publicly recorded for future family generations, you don't want a disputed future "cloud" over the title - especially after you've paid $$ . Regarding your question - -"is it worth it" -- only you can answer that ????????? Good luck, Bill

[SylvanLakeWH 26,824]

 - Well said.

 

And... quit claim deeds are not warranty deeds. They just quit to you all claims the seller may have... lawyer up and do a thorough title search.

Edited February 12 by SylvanLakeWH

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,804]

  All the legal mumbo-jumbo is over my comprehension level. 
  But are you saying you could potentially buy 8 acres for $7500 plus some other fees? Seems like a great deal unless I don’t understand something. 

[Pullstart 63,839]

I can imagine a handful of rail cars being brought in, and laid out as an Air-BNB or what have you.  Boy Scouts, family outings, people singing coumbaya around the camp fire…

[WHX?? 50,087]

24 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

rail cars being brought in,

Tracks are ripped up ... cost a small fortune. Then the codes you'd have to follow. 

 

4 hours ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

lawyer up

Yeah now that 2500 just got alot higher.  I would think a title or abstract outfit could do a title search cheaper.

 

2 hours ago, Sparky said:

over my comprehension level. 

That didn't take much did it ... 

 

12 hours ago, Beap52 said:

land is unusable for our needs

Probably tons of track ballast one would have to deal with. so only good for a trail. 

12 hours ago, Beap52 said:

purchasing it and doing with it who knows what.

That might be a big deal ... it ever gets turned into a ATV trail.. nothing against riders but some show no respect for adjoining properties. 

 

It's just bizarre that ithe legal owner not recorded with the county. That's gotta complicate things. 

Edited February 12 by WHX??

[Beap52 1,075]

Lots of great comments and suggestions.  It seems that this process is much more complicated than I would have imagined. 

 

One reason we are interested in the  land is because all of the overgrowth is affecting our property.  In the last 60 years, the railroad property has grown up in trees--trees that lean over onto our land thus we cannot get our farming equipment within 36 feet of the property line fence.  (We've got pictures but I don't have them with me.) Currently we have a man hired with a skid steer with grinder attachment that is grinding the brush and small trees on our side of the fence but the large trees hanging over our land still won't let us get tractors and combines up closer to the fence.  When dad was alive, he mowed inside our fence--that's not possible now. At leas once a year, my brother who manages the farm has to gather up branches out of our crop fields. 

 

A neighbor suggested to hire a track hoe to run down the fence line and literally strip the limbs and branches overhanging our land.  This would provide relief for a period of time.  If we had control of the right of way, we'd likely push the trees over towards the middle of the right of way.

 

Saga continues and we are in early stages of what appears to be a long process

[Brockport Bill 1,794]

as i noted in my earlier post i suggest the critical step is to in fact confirm who does, or does not, own the parcel or have the ROW rights? Absent that info you are stalled to make any informed versus UNinformed decisons - otherwise you are spinning in place!!!!!!!!! You need to decide if you wish to spend the fees to hire the title search company because without confirming who you are legally dealing with your options change.

 

As another note.......... it was stated earlier in thread that taxes have not been paid - if that is true, then the government entity likely has right of foreclosure --- thus becoming the legal owner - my guess would be its the county or it could be the locality????? If as stated, the taxes have not been paid and the county has choosen not to foreclose over many years then you should ask WHY? That's an answer you need to know? Were the jurisdictional entity in fact to foreclose then they have the rights to the land and can simply do nothing with it, or decide their own use purposes -- or sell it ? My guess ( again I am not a lawyer )  the law provides it be auctioned - - meaning anyone could bid and purchase it in which case you have a new land owner neighbor --- so, my suggestion is -- hire the title search company -- and clarify the past tax payment issue -- and don't go by hearsay -- get actual confirmed answers and in writing if possible from the municipality lawyer? eg: the County Attorney etc??? Bill

[Beap52 1,075]

47 minutes ago, Brockport Bill said:

as i noted in my earlier post i suggest the critical step is to in fact confirm who does, or does not, own the parcel or have the ROW rights? Absent that info you are stalled to make any informed versus UNinformed decisons - otherwise you are spinning in place!!!!!!!!! You need to decide if you wish to spend the fees to hire the title search company because without confirming who you are legally dealing with your options change.

 

As another note.......... it was stated earlier in thread that taxes have not been paid - if that is true, then the government entity likely has right of foreclosure --- thus becoming the legal owner - my guess would be its the county or it could be the locality????? If as stated, the taxes have not been paid and the county has choosen not to foreclose over many years then you should ask WHY? That's an answer you need to know? Were the jurisdictional entity in fact to foreclose then they have the rights to the land and can simply do nothing with it, or decide their own use purposes -- or sell it ? My guess ( again I am not a lawyer )  the law provides it be auctioned - - meaning anyone could bid and purchase it in which case you have a new land owner neighbor --- so, my suggestion is -- hire the title search company -- and clarify the past tax payment issue -- and don't go by hearsay -- get actual confirmed answers and in writing if possible from the municipality lawyer? eg: the County Attorney etc??? Bill

Thanks for your great input Bill,

 

I duly note your great advice and it looks like I need to make a trip to the northern part of our state and do some research.  Your advice and suggestions are leading us in the right directions. 

 

Thanks!

 

Phil

[Brockport Bill 1,794]

1 hour ago, Beap52 said:

Thanks for your great input Bill,

 

I duly note your great advice and it looks like I need to make a trip to the northern part of our state and do some research.  Your advice and suggestions are leading us in the right directions. 

 

Thanks!

 

Phil

you're welcome Phil -- I am fortunate to have been involved in these type complex transactions and strategic policy issues much of my career - ( including acquiring segments of about 40 miles of various old rr corridor property over 20 years ) --- that involved many tens of millions of dollars of projects -- and including complicated scope with lots of surprises along the journey -- but as with all things in life, experience is defined as " life's accumulated mistakes" -- haha - - the one key thing for us as humans is to learn where are the minefields and to know how to avoid them!!!!!!!!!! This could be simple easy process for you, or bumpy - some unknowns could await your objective --- but what will be key is to communicate with the right people who actually have the authoritative answers - it's nice to have a friend in town at the local convenience store give an opinion and advice -- but that can really send you off course -- get the info from the people who actually have the responsibility and authority on the issue!! Have fun -- if as you proceed you need some follow up feel free to ask?

[Beap52 1,075]

I always appreciate when someone opens a conversation then follows up so everyone not left hanging wondering if  a solution was found.  I'll catch you all up--at least those of you are interested.

 

I called a title company that advertises they work with railroad property.  Apparently,  no one told the lady I talked with and my brother, who visited their place of business, got the same response. 

 

I called the court house.  The lady in the deeds office seemed surprised that I was aware of the GIS maps (thanks to advice from RedSquare members)  and that the railroad right of way was not listed as being owned by anyone.  Her supervisor is on a cruise and she assured me they would follow up and get back with me via email or direct phone call.  When I brought up that taxes were not likely being collected she transferred me to then assessors office.

 

The assessors office was equally surprised about the "no man's land" and my knowledge about GIS maps.  She immediately pulled the map up and said that her office and deeds office would be talking about what we found.  I asked "So, no taxes have been paid on this property for nearly 70 years?"  "Kind of looks that way." was her reply.   I said "Well, obviously this isn't agricultural land and should be taxed at same rate Walmart or any other industrial property."  She giggled and agreed.

 

Both women were very kind and helpful. One of them even called me later with a name and phone number of a local fellow who purchased some railroad land.  Yesterday, I text him and no response. Today I called twice and he cut off my phone call (no doubt thanks to scammers and my out-of-his-area code phone number.). 

 

As a side note. It is amazing (scary/concerning) what information can be found on the internet about a person.  His neighbors, his house via google earth, relatives, people who know him, even his church affiliation. I didn't spend too much time trying to find someone I might know who could help me get in touch.  (He is a fairly recent replant in the town.)

 

The saga continues....