417A Eaton 1100

[AHS 1,482]

Ok, I was just moving the tractor! I swear! Moved the tractor out of the garage, for an oil change on a vehicle. Tractor was running just 2 minutes. Got the vehicle out of the garage, time to move the tractor back in and that’s when the hydraulic leak started. I tore the tractor apart to the lift valve, wiped it down, and that wasn’t the problem. There’s 3 lines going to the lift valve? Correct me if Im wrong. (There should be 4?). The leak is coming from the middle of the tractor from where the shifter is. Where is the 4th line?? Do I have to take off the right cover? I don’t know!

[ebinmaine 69,735]

9 minutes ago, AHS said:

There’s 3 lines going to the lift valve? Correct me if Im wrong. (There should be 4?). The leak is coming from the middle of the tractor from where the shifter is. Where is the 4th line?? Do I have to take off the right cover? I don’t know!

 

If you remove the top plate fright in front of the seat you'll see the shift linkage and that 4th hose.  

 

@Handy Don and @cleat might be of good assistance here.  I only know enough to get myself in trouble with the newer ones.  

[AHS 1,482]

I have removed the rear fender pan, the shifter plate and the key switch plate. Also, it has been mighty cold here, between 0 and 10 degrees here at night, 10w-30 is like molasses. Im afraid of what i may have done! The motor runs awesome though!! 

[JCM 9,928]

Did the Eaton 1100 burp up through the vent hole in the dipstick  ??

[Ed Kennell 39,768]

         

 

[AHS 1,482]

26 minutes ago, JCM said:

Did the Eaton 1100 burp up through the vent hole in the dipstick  ??

Hmm… tomorrow ill check on that

[Handy Don 13,087]

1 hour ago, AHS said:

 

 

These are the A & B to the cylinder and the T going to the filter.

The fourth is the P (from the pump). It is rubber on some models and steel tube on others. It begins at the charge pump behind the transaxle cooling fan and ends at the front side, right side of the control valve. You really need to remove the side plate (above the cylinder; “Automatic” decal) to get access. 

Since your T line is rubber, I suspect your P line will be as well. 

[JCM 9,928]

 Don, I thought that was part of the lower dash above cylinder and was accessible through the guage cluster /  key switch / idiot light console   ? I don't think that is a removable panel ?  That bolts into the battery tray area. Gets complicated in there. @Handy Don

Edited January 27 by JCM

[c-series don 9,266]

@Handy DonThat panel that says automatic is not removable. That’s what makes removing the valve or the hoses a pain in the neck. I just had a phone conversation with @Brockport Bill on this issue. 

[Handy Don 13,087]

1 hour ago, JCM said:

 I don't think that is a removable panel ?  That bolts into the battery tray area. Gets complicated in there. @Handy Don

You are correct, very complicated and very, very tight. Getting to the P and T connections on the front of the control valve is hard.
The “Automatic” panel is structural and isn’t an “easy to remove” panel like the one below the gages or on the tunnel. It bolts to the frame at the bottom, the battery tray at the top and to the vertical cross-panel (blue arrow). It is the one with the grommet protecting the hoses seen in the picture, below.

The alternative is to try to remove the vertical cross panel that spans the hoodstand directly behind the engine (blue arrow) and try to work between the engine and the “Automatic” panel. I tried that but I needed better access.

You can also try removing the battery platform and going in from above.

Either way, that gets you to the connection but if replacing the hose is needed, I’ll be a challenge.

I’m convinced that when these hydro tractors were put together, the lift circuit hoses were put in immediately after the transaxle and frame were mated before ANY of the topsides, including the engine, were added.

 

When doing the mods to add the front remote hydraulics, I inserted a a pressure relief valve into that P line so I had to get at both ends. 

Edited January 27 by Handy Don

[cleat 6,863]

I would clean everything up as much as possible and try and locate the source of the leak before ripping everything apart.

You should be able to reach up and around and wipe things at least somewhat and determine the issue.

 

If you find a ruptured hose then the fun begins on removing it but at least you are just removing one part and not tearing down the entire tractor.

 

[AHS 1,482]

11 hours ago, Handy Don said:

These are the A & B to the cylinder and the T going to the filter.

The fourth is the P (from the pump). It is rubber on some models and steel tube on others. It begins at the charge pump behind the transaxle cooling fan and ends at the front side, right side of the control valve. You really need to remove the side plate (above the cylinder; “Automatic” decal) to get access. 

Since your T line is rubber, I suspect your P line will be as well. 

My P line is steel. (On the right side of my tractor). The question is where does it convert to rubber? I’ll have to look at that. I THINK that the P line is the problem.

[953 nut 56,774]

40 minutes ago, AHS said:

My P line is steel. (On the right side of my tractor). The question is where does it convert to rubber? I’ll have to look at that. I THINK that the P line is the problem.

Take a look at the filter mount, you'll see it.

[pfrederi 18,193]

Some pics **** may help.  The fourth line you cant see from outside goes down from valve through the motion control are and to the bottom of the charge pump.  The steel line from top of charge pump (right side of tractor) goes down to the bottom of the trans axle

 

 

[cleat 6,863]

Here are some pics of my GT1600 with rubber hoses and how they are ran.

Here is the front side of the valve as you would see with the front cover just behind the engine removed.

Supply hose is at top left, return hose is at top right and cylinder hoses come out of the bottom of the valve.

 

Here is the supply hose connected to pump outlet at the bottom of the pump.

 

This is how the supply hose is routed on this tractor.

 

This is the return hose routing.

 

Edited January 27 by cleat

[Handy Don 13,087]

If your P line starts as steel at the charge pump, it’ll be steel all the way to the control valve. It is a tortuous path and that line is extremely difficult to remove or replace without taking a fair amount stuff apart. I’m sure the decision to use steel in the first place was because it’ll normally have a longer service life than rubber hoses. That is the line I replaced (with alloy steel).

 

The routing is very similar to @pfrederi’s rubber one, however your valve will likely be different with the steel tube attaching to a 90º fitting at the front of the valve.

In his first picture, you are looking aft from the engine and what I call the cross-plate has been removed (as has the hoodstand and battery tray and steering shaft).  Note that if you can get a view from underneath up to the bottom between the frame rails you might be able to get a look at the bottom of the valve and see where the leak is.

 

Sadly, the likelihood of a simple loose fitting that could be tightened a bit to stop the leakage is low. Much higher likelihood that the steel tube has been vibrating against an edge and worn through. The minor good news is that the pressure is ~700psi and not 2,500-4,000 as you see on larger equipment!

[cleat 6,863]

Besides a split hose, the other leak points are the hose ends that have an O ring seal and an O ring at each end of the control rod in the control valve.

These leaks tend to be slow drips when they go bad.

 

[Handy Don 13,087]

2 minutes ago, cleat said:

This is how the supply hose is routed on this tractor.

Cleat that’s the first one I’ve seen routed upwards and then back. Very clean.

Again, @AHS, Cleat’s photos are with a lot of the tractor not yet assembled!

[AHS 1,482]

Ok, the P hose is rubber. All the other hoses look FAIRLY easy!? (The pump and the lift cylinder)….. But the P hose is interesting!! The P hose on mine is identical to @pfrederi and leaking at the right end. I’m doing all the hoses! Might as well when you’re in there!! I bought all the hoses from Wheelhorsepartandmore. Thank you to all of you!  On to hose replacement!! I have a feeling ill be on here asking why/how do get a hose in that little tiny hole!!

[Brockport Bill 1,778]

I just replaced the hydro hoses a few weeks a go on my 1983, C175 h ---- and last year I did the same job for my 1984 C175 h .. 

 

it is a nightmare job -- not fun and many bruised cut knuckles ( and a few nasty words ).

The photos from Cleat's post are excellent -- better than those I could send.

I found it very difficult to locate the leak from under the master valve so I just kept cleaning and then monitoring -- still hard to tell if it was a fitting, a threading, or an internal master valve O ring, or a hose or its fitting O ring???.

I determined it was best to remove the master valve and replace its internal "O" rings as well as replace hoses --- 

 

I hate doing any job twice and because the job is nasty I only wanted to do it once -- and although expensive $ to replace hoses and fittings that was my choice.

 

I found removing the battery and the front access plate on the engine side was best - - as well as removing the lower dash plate and the tunnel plate - plus lots of light and patience.

Probably re-inserting the bolts that hold the master valve in place was most challenging. The new hoses were stiff so getting them threaded placed through the side panel access was also a challenge.

 

Did my snow plowing few days ago and so far all good -- let's hope its a one time project - - UGH !!

[AHS 1,482]

Yup, exactly @Brockport Bill, I only have one blown, but the last owner had 1198 hours on it, and i have maybe 1 hour on it! So, 1200 hours on a reasonably well maintained 417A, I figure it time to do all the hoses!

[AHS 1,482]

This one might be another topic! I have a 1973 WH 14/sundstrand w/ auto transmission fluid in it. With no leaks fluid on the  sunstrand! I have a 1986 417A (w/snowblower) Eaton 1100 w/ 10w-30 in it. I live in Maine, so the lowest ive seen it was -14 degrees outside, the garage is not much warmer than that! Anyway! Auto transmission fluid and 10w-30 have different viscosity completely! Is there a hydraulic fluid that i should use, auto tranny fluid? Cause pushing 10w-30 thru a hose with that much force is ASKING for leaks or blowouts!

[Brockport Bill 1,778]

3 hours ago, AHS said:

This one might be another topic! I have a 1973 WH 14/sundstrand w/ auto transmission fluid in it. With no leaks fluid on the  sunstrand! I have a 1986 417A (w/snowblower) Eaton 1100 w/ 10w-30 in it. I live in Maine, so the lowest ive seen it was -14 degrees outside, the garage is not much warmer than that! Anyway! Auto transmission fluid and 10w-30 have different viscosity completely! Is there a hydraulic fluid that i should use, auto tranny fluid? Cause pushing 10w-30 thru a hose with that much force is ASKING for leaks or blowouts!

 i do not know the specific answer to your question but i would suggest you reference and rely on the manuals on line here at RSq and you will see they all have specs for the oil based on temperatures - versus viscosity -- for both the engine and the hydro trannys --- i'm guessing the WH company expected their machines to frequently operate below 0 degree outdoors so they accordingly likely recommended and oil or tranny fluid that was appropriate -- including for proper circulation via the hydro hoses. 

 

[ebinmaine 69,735]

5 minutes ago, Brockport Bill said:

 i do not know the specific answer to your question but i would suggest you reference and rely on the manuals on line here at RSq and you will see they all have specs for the oil based on temperatures - versus viscosity -- for both the engine and the hydro trannys --- i'm guessing the WH company expected their machines to frequently operate below 0 degree outdoors so they accordingly likely recommended and oil or tranny fluid that was appropriate -- including for proper circulation via the hydro hoses. 

 

 

 

 

I'd agree with this for the most part. 

 

I think it's important to remember that these machines are likely now well past what Wheelhorse expected as a lifespan. 

Also, oil tech has changed over that 40 ish years  (or more).

 

 

I've seen threads where some use synthetic products. 

 

@squonk or @Ed Kennell maybe?

[squonk 41,942]

I use Mobil 1 10 W 40 in my Sunstrand 76 C-160. Mostly because it's worn and the thicker oil helps in the summer mowing season. Haven't really run it in the winter in years. I ran Mobil 1 10 W 30 in the Eaton 1100 I did have all year round. They changed from ATF to Motor around the 73 74 year. I'm sure there is an oil that would work better in the cold but it's up to you to try a not recommended fluid in a 40 yr. old transmission.