Commando 800 re-power

[njdpo 10]

hi all, 

 

Im working on a Commando 800 re-power and thought I would start a new thread.

 

Ive got a few questions that perhaps some of you might be able to offer some advice on. 

i have removed part # 14-64 as seen on this web page ( https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/manufacturer/toro/riding-products/1972/1-0110-commando-800-4-speed-tractor-1972/p-t-o-clutch ) 

 

while trying to move it from the k181 to the M8 I notice the machining isn't the same between the two motors, and that part 14-64 (Rod & Plate Assy)  fits nicely on the k181 (as the k181 machining is on a "single flat plane")... but moving it to the M8 quickly reveals a couple of issues. First the machining of the M8 does not have a nice "flat plane" like the K181 did, instead it is "stepped by .200 thousands of an inch. Looks like Im going to need to shim up that area of the block (by .200 thousanths) in order to get the bracket to sit securely (and squarely) on the block. The second issue is that the M8 is not tapped for the set screw that was installed on the K181 (thats not a problem). 

 

Bother I go finding / making a .200 shim - does anybody have any other ideas ?  

your thoughts and feedback appreciated.

Thanks Dave.

 

the pic of the filthy K181 block below shows that the machined surface is a "flat single plane", so the bracket fits squarely on the block. 

'

 

note the ledge on the newer M8 block - "stepped by .200 thousands of an inch

 

 

 

 

RELATED LINKS

 

[953 nut 57,706]

Gotta do what you gotta do to make it fit,  make the shim.   

[njdpo 10]

I’m working on getting that part 14-64 (Rod & Plate Assy) moved over to the M8 ...

the set screw is not the same size on the two engines - the M8 has a set screw 1/16 smaller than the k181
 ... and this complicates things a bit as the clearance/fit in the slot seen in the 14-64 part is now sloppy.

the fix was using a properly sized bolt (same length as the set screw on the k181, BUT - grind the head of the bolt to a nice round cylinder and size it for a nice fit in the slot on the 14-64 (Rod & Plate Assy).
this was done by chucking the threads of the bolt into an electric drill and spinning the bolt head up against my bench grinder. (if i had a lathe I would have used that).
 

I’ll head over to the hardware store and see if I can find a fat washer that will give me the .200 shim I need to mount the plate safely against the engine. 
will post a few pics once I get the shim ready for installation.
 

- Dave
 

[njdpo 10]

and now for another Question

i want to move the muffler from the k181 to the M8 and cant get it off. 

 

Its relatively new - and Its got a lot of life left in it.

but shes stuck on the exhaust pipe real good ...

does anyone have and ideas on how to get that muffler off ? 

 

I was thinking that maybe I could heat the threaded area of the muffler that is in contact with the exhaust pipe. 

Ive heard of someone say get the muffler hot and apply candle wax to the threads, the wax would possibly make it easier to get off ???

 

Any ideas and help tips for removing that muffler are greatly appreciated.

see attached pics .

 

- Dave

 

Edited January 28 by njdpo

[njdpo 10]

and now for another question  

 

REGARDING - crankshaft lengths 

 

the crankshaft length on the:

 - K181 is 3 1/4 long

 - M8    is 2 3/4 long (roughly 1/2 inch shorter) 

 

am I facing any issues with the difference in crank length ??

(should have measured that up first i suppose).

 

- Dave

[njdpo 10]

hi all - Anybody have any thoughts on the crankshaft length question (above) for me ?

- Dave

[oliver2-44 10,298]

If the end of the M8 crankshaft is threaded you could have a short shaft extension machined and bolt it on. 
 

I’m guessing you plant to put a WH mechanical PTO on it. If you stick with the short crankshaft 1/2” of the PTO bearing race will be unsupported.  Thankfully that a long race and bearing. Thinking out loud, WH uses the same PTO on 16hp and even 20hp tractors. So your 8hp engine isn’t going to load that PTO down very hard. Just don’t run a PTO implement with a super tight belt that would create extra side load. Just my 

[njdpo 10]

On 2/5/2025 at 11:39 PM, oliver2-44 said:

If the end of the M8 crankshaft is threaded you could have a short shaft extension machined and bolt it on. 
 

I’m guessing you plant to put a WH mechanical PTO on it. If you stick with the short crankshaft 1/2” of the PTO bearing race will be unsupported.  Thankfully that a long race and bearing. Thinking out loud, WH uses the same PTO on 16hp and even 20hp tractors. So your 8hp engine isn’t going to load that PTO down very hard. Just don’t run a PTO implement with a super tight belt that would create extra side load. Just my 

 

OK so I took a liking to the advice from oliver2-44, and had my machinist buddy cut up a stainless extension for the crank

im going to tap the crank (which is predrilled at .390) with a 7/16-20 (fine thread bolt).

a few pics attached - for your entertainment. 

 

Oh also - if anyone has any advice on the removal of that stuck muffler - that would be great !

Initially I just wanted the muffler - as I already have a pipe on the M8 - but maybe I should put a pipe wrench on it and just use the whole thing? 

Anybody have any thoughts on that direction - probably save the muffler from being damaged ?? 

 

Pic #1 - parts ... 

 

Pic 2 - the dry fit. 

 

pic # 3 - extension slightly recessed below end of bearing surface. 

Thanks again - Dave

[oliver2-44 10,298]

3 hours ago, njdpo said:

Oh also - if anyone has any advice on the removal of that stuck muffler - that would be great !

Initially I just wanted the muffler - as I already have a pipe on the M8 - but maybe I should put a pipe wrench on it and just use the whole thing? 

Anybody have any thoughts on that direction - probably save the muffler from being damaged ?? 

The pipe is probable stuck in both engines., just like the muffler is stuck on the pipe.

You might tryit, but be careful and don't break the block trying to get the pipe out.

 

Does the pipe on the M8 have good usable threads on the muffler end of it?

 All options have risk.

 

If it were me (and I'm not always successful)  I would cut the pipe off about 3/4" - 1" muffler. 

Then I would take a scroll saw with a metal blade and slit the inside of the pipe 3-4 places. 

Carefully so you don't cut down into the muffler threads.

Now,  collapse the pipe into the muffler.  This usually take trying with a large vice grip, or a vice.

Don't crush it all the way, jus enough to break the threads free.

I usually find I get 1 area to collapse/free a little , then go back and cut a slit next to the collapsed area. Then work on collapsing it more until it will unscrew or pull out.

This takes patients and a little luck doesn't hurt! 

 

[wallfish 17,445]

19 hours ago, njdpo said:

Anybody have any thoughts on that direction - probably save the muffler from being damaged ?? 

Don't worry about it and ditch that pepper pot spark arrester thing. They sound terrible and it's loud anyway. Go with a real muffler.

Low tone rumble and it won't give you a headache

Something like

https://www.amazon.com/Clamp-Muffler-Gravely-Replaces-18543/dp/B0080X2Y0I

 

Or this

https://www.amazon.com/Muffler-Compatible-Tractors-393840-R91-Replacement/dp/B0DYP26XK9/ref=sr_1_11?adgrpid=1346904222974367&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.1snSXznkcoERqDZm2XLHjLN9oUeIurmY9l0ioID_taxKXL1iBsYNooq7cmYyQ5PxQhR4vzEc1OtRAFPYq6lphYgNI03xQl-rxA0SnbnKjM49Bwn6otv3QIFH3p4YN43Ps2iTX2lxddIqLuigNXX11vaqSuufIQrI5LLueZiQtwhIzz79XtChjCB_E4hchPUVlwgnEINVB8K-yOJlrA-NbrPuN47Z9Kqp4IRuUeUnxoA.HLVhuxN0NEHgeAdCz5YMtvfodlrRgMzBItUMMpc0pGw&dib_tag=se&hvadid=84181789032618&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=51385&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=p&hvtargid=kwd-84182640594122%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=11266_13305230&keywords=105-296&mcid=3aabc06d8559301da8279c057f78dbde&msclkid=fd2888d0fa7c12ef5be4ef186da77684&qid=1741199444&sr=8-11

[njdpo 10]

@oliver2-44 - thanks for that...

I was also thinking that a pipe wrench could do more harm than good ( and my luck never works out like that ).

Spring is nearly hear,  and I need to wrap this up.  

 

@Wallfish - WOW !

I really like those options ... 

• The gravely unit has an inner diameter of 1 inch 5/16 -or- 1.3125)
• The longer black unit has an inlet diameter of 1 inch 3/8 -or- 1.375) 

My exhaust pipe on the M8 is 1.325 (slightly less than 1inch 5/16 at 1.3125)

so the smaller Gravely unit appears to be a good snug fit - all I would need is the muffler clamp (i might get that at a local auto parts store or maybe amazon ) ... 

I like that it has a 90 degree bend in it so i could perhaps point it forward - or upward ? with a flapper valve maybe ? ? ? 

 

( even if that longer unit did come in the correct size - fabricating a support bracket is going to slow my roll to the finish line ... ) 

 

Thanks Guys ! 

[wallfish 17,445]

55 minutes ago, njdpo said:

My exhaust pipe on the M8 is 1.325 (slightly less than 1inch 5/16 at 1.3125)

so the smaller Gravely unit appears to be a good snug fit - all I would need is the muffler clamp (i might get that at a local auto parts store or maybe amazon ) ... 

I like that it has a 90 degree bend in it so i could perhaps point it forward - or upward ? with a flapper valve maybe ? ? ? 

 

( even if that longer unit did come in the correct size - fabricating a support bracket is going to slow my roll to the finish line ... ) 

Both fit nice and snug with a clamp onto the 1" black pipe. I have quite a few of those Stens mufflers on stuff and when clamped, there's no need for any bracing. I cut that little bracket on them off in most cases.

I mostly point them facing down on the tractors.

 

If the engine runs, run it until the exhaust is hot and those pipes come out much easier.

[njdpo 10]

Hi Wallfish,

 

Im hoping to do the motor swap this weekend, ill break out the tape measure and see where that 17 inch "black" muffler stops in relation to everything else (mechanical PTO maybe a problem  ?)  ... 

I tend to use this small commando 800 (and its tight turning radius)  for pulling a trailer in heavily wooded areas (fire wood collections)  - where many years of leaves and dried brush are on the ground.

 

So while I like the idea of pointing the muffler downwards - I need to be mindful of potential fires due to sparks (something that has happened to me once before).

Caught it early before the fire dept had to get involved... 

 

Thx Dave 

[njdpo 10]

On 3/6/2025 at 6:54 PM, wallfish said:

Both fit nice and snug with a clamp onto the 1" black pipe. I have quite a few of those Stens mufflers on stuff and when clamped, there's no need for any bracing. I cut that little bracket on them off in most cases.

I mostly point them facing down on the tractors.

 

If the engine runs, run it until the exhaust is hot and those pipes come out much easier.

 

Hey Wallfish - do you happen to have any pics of those mufflers installed on any of your tractors ? Im eyeballing that 17 inch black muffler and thinking the only way to install it is vertical ... seems pointing it forward would have it extending pretty far out past the nose of the tractor (i could easily see myself walking into that blazing hot sharp metal )  ... Downward is probably out since it seems the manual clutch will be in the way ... but if you have a pic that would be great - to give me an idea of placement and possibilities (if you have one or two ?) 

[wallfish 17,445]

19 minutes ago, njdpo said:

 

Hey Wallfish - do you happen to have any pics of those mufflers installed on any of your tractors ? Im eyeballing that 17 inch black muffler and thinking the only way to install it is vertical ... seems pointing it forward would have it extending pretty far out past the nose of the tractor (i could easily see myself walking into that blazing hot sharp metal )  ... Downward is probably out since it seems the manual clutch will be in the way ... but if you have a pic that would be great - to give me an idea of placement and possibilities (if you have one or two ?) 

I'll grab some tomorrow.

[Racinbob 11,702]

Here's a Commando 800 I spruced up for my grandson some years ago. I used a pepper can muffler on it and being an 8hp the sound was acceptable. Tried one on a 16hp too and it was way too loud. 

 

 

Here's a couple muffler shots of my Reborn B80 I recently did. The Gravley muffler does sound nice. With it being so short pointing it down won't be a problem. I initially installed it pointing forward and liked the look but I found out after the fact I had PTO clearance issues so I has to use a street 45° which took the horizontal mounting out of the picture. The short nipple screwed into the pipe fitting is not a close nipple. It's a longer nipple cut down so I had unthreaded pipe to clamp the muffler to. You may not have a PTO issue with that style. Just have to try it. I angle cut the outlet on the muffler for looks.

 

 

The heat mark on the side of the hood is not from this muffler. It's from the original. For history reasons mentioned before I opted not to repaint this one. 

 

[wallfish 17,445]

Bob's pic gives a pretty good description of what needs to be done to upgrade the muffler to a low tone muffler.

The larger muffler will just up more vertical space than the short one as pictured.

[njdpo 10]

wow thanks for the pics.

your making me feel bad - as mine isnt getting cleaned up in this effort ...

or probably any effort here after 

unfortunately - im just shooting for a mechanically operable machine ... 

I need to order up a muffler... 

thanks again ! 

[peter lena 9,074]

@njdpo   like a  10 -  12 inch  pipe wrench , with about a , 4 ft pipe for leverage asist  , would also  ensure that the engine will not move , that leverage grip  ,  will give you  a huge assist  , use wrench close to engine start point , kroil  penetrant , pete   

[njdpo 10]

2 hours ago, peter lena said:

@njdpo   like a  10 -  12 inch  pipe wrench , with about a , 4 ft pipe for leverage asist  , would also  ensure that the engine will not move , that leverage grip  ,  will give you  a huge assist  , use wrench close to engine start point , kroil  penetrant , pete   

hi Pete - thanks for jumping in ... attached are a few pics with a tape measure for real numbers (rather than estimations). 

 

im hopeful that one of those mufflers would attach without me having to get that existing black pipe replaced.

(that would be just one more thing to slow my roll to the finish line)  

 

 

 

[peter lena 9,074]

@njdpo  , question , ever  clean out and re grease those , mule  drive bearings  ?  those 6203 ( 3/4 ) 2rc  are easily  cleaned out  and  lucas green chassis grease , for smooth  spin up . also related  bearings , like to detail in attachment  related areas , make them work better ,  pete     

[kpinnc 13,622]

5 hours ago, njdpo said:

im hopeful that one of those mufflers would attach without me having to get that existing black pipe replaced.

 

You can always cut that pipe down a bit and use a muffler with a split input and use a clamp like newer models. 

 

There are multiple (smaller) options, and these cannister style mufflers offer better noise reduction anyway. 

 

[njdpo 10]

4 hours ago, peter lena said:

@njdpo  , question , ever  clean out and re grease those , mule  drive bearings  ?  those 6203 ( 3/4 ) 2rc  are easily  cleaned out  and  lucas green chassis grease , for smooth  spin up . also related  bearings , like to detail in attachment  related areas , make them work better ,  pete     

hi Pete, 

I'm glad you brought that bearing cleanup / degreasing topic up.

 

- i was thinking of way to clean out that needle bearing out without making a mess...

- im seeing that the needle bearing uses grease like  the "6203 ( 3/4 ) 2rc" - which shows up as a ball bearing 

- im thinking toothbrush and spray on carb cleaner?

- maybe soak that pulley (and bearing) in a cut up milk jug ?

 

and then there was the grease ... what to use ...   

are you specifically talking about this lucas grease (pic below) ? 

Edited March 22 by njdpo

[njdpo 10]

so i just found another thread (with Pete in it ) ...

 

I have confirmation on the cleaing process now.

im gonna carb spray and tooth brush it. 

 

dave 

 

 

[peter lena 9,074]

@ njdpo,  those bearings have a COMMONALITY OF WIDE RUBBER SIDE SHIELDS, very easily removed , like a small flat putty knife  or flat pocket screwdriver , don,t roughhouse them , once started  they easily pop out , also easily pop in after cleaning  , regreasing, thats the grease I use , bombproof stuff , also polyurea rated , so it stays with the bearing , what a concept ! initially wipe out bearing  , then carb cleaner flush , put grease in palm , and pull it into bearing , put seals back on , all  my bearings move in easy silence , the lack of bearing whine , is telling you the lube is doing the job . lay out anything  , to verify / duplicate on re asembley . all my decks / pto drives , have this  upgrade , also  slowly engage the pto , the effortless movement , is ridiculous , typically  look at a problem area , with intent to  eliminate it , often its just  an improvement  / detailing . typical attachment set ups are  sloppy , and need firming / lubricating up , also like penetrating oil / super lube in cables , with added spring pull , to close , it works , pete