Engine swap question..

[fourwheelhorseman 320]

As many of you know I blew up my old original kohler k341 16 hp. The tractor is a 1975 with a solid mount engine. I just got a really good deal on a new style rubber mounted 16 hp that I intend to set up on this same tractor. So question.. have any of you done this type of swap before? All I can see that will be needed is possible holes drilled in the frame.. or maybe take the cradle off and try and mount the engine from the bolts to the cradle to the frame? Thoughts are encouraged on this, as I havnt had a chance to look at it really close.

[ri702bill 8,507]

Could this be as simple as swapping oil pans??

[ebinmaine 68,393]

 

Are you planning to pop out the balance gears from the recent acquisition?

IMHO, you certainly should.  

[fourwheelhorseman 320]

19 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

Could this be as simple as swapping oil pans??

No, I do t beleive so from what I’ve seen already… unless I’m missing something with it, I’ll look at it closer this coming week.

[fourwheelhorseman 320]

19 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

Are you planning to pop out the balance gears from the recent acquisition?

IMHO, you certainly should.  

I plan on doing just that.. after my last experience… lol

[kpinnc 12,524]

1 hour ago, fourwheelhorseman said:

just got a really good deal on a new style rubber mounted 16 hp that I intend to set up on this same tractor. So question.. have any of you done this type of swap before? All I can see that will be needed is possible holes drilled in the frame.. or maybe take the cradle off and try and mount the engine from the bolts to the cradle to the frame?

I don’t have any cradle mounted engines, but you can buy the aluminum isolation mounts from the vendors here. They effectively make the cradle into a solid mount and the factory holes on the frame should line up for you. 
 

https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product/engine-mounts-for-wheel-horse/

Since your tractor is a 1975 model, I’m not 100% sure the hood will fit perfectly or not. Hopefully someone here has done the conversion and will chime in. If you have to mod the hood hinge by an inch that would be very easy. 
 

I would say it will fit as is, but mentioned it because I don’t have one myself. 

 

Edited Sunday at 10:58 PM by kpinnc

[953 nut 55,812]

This post will give you the best information on Kohler blocks.  If the engine Spec number ends in AS it is a shallow oil pan engine.

 

[Marv 943]

If you have the cradle, there should not be an issue with the hood. I have a C111 with that set up, which is like the 1975 C160.

[Marv 943]

Forgot to mention. The C111 has a Briggs engine. I also have a SK 486, which has the Kohler engine. Hood set up is same.

[ebinmaine 68,393]

9 minutes ago, Marv said:

Forgot to mention. The C111 has a Briggs engine. I also have a SK 486, which has the Kohler engine. Hood set up is same.

 

C101, 21, 61  would have the Kohler too.  

[76c12091520h 3,672]

Been a few years since I've dealt with this , so I don't remember all the specifics so don't beat me to hard if I misquote : engines are different internally ( bottom end ) from a solid mount to a shaker mount , PTO hoops and related brackets are different, maybe a few other things.....

[fourwheelhorseman 320]

I’d like to remove the cradle and solid mount the engine to the frame, I’ll most likely have to drill holes  as the original holes don’t line up.. as far as I know, I’ll need to spend more time measuring and looking it over before I decide what I need to do. I was hoping one you fellas already had ran into this and could tell me which way you went with your swap.

[ebinmaine 68,393]

13 minutes ago, fourwheelhorseman said:

I’d like to remove the cradle and solid mount the engine to the frame, I’ll most likely have to drill holes  as the original holes don’t line up.. as far as I know, I’ll need to spend more time measuring and looking it over before I decide what I need to do. I was hoping one you fellas already had ran into this and could tell me which way you went with your swap.

 

Look at the build of our C121. 

That has the solid mounts. 

 

 

 

 

 

[oliver2-44 9,870]

Your original engine was a large base block like the bottom one in the picture.

Your new engine is a small base block like the top one in the picture.

Your old engines oil pan looked like this one below . The engine bolted to it from the top and it bolter to the frame from the top on one side and bottom on the other

You could make an adapter plate that went on top of you original oil pan and the small bas block mount to it. but it would raise the height of the PTO and mess up the belt guard fitting, etc.

Your new engines oil pan probable looks something similar to this one pictured below  (although there are lots of other brand small base oil pans.

Since the bottom of this pan is not flat it needs the cradle to mount on the wheel Horse Frame, or you will need to fab a custom base.

There are a very small number of small base pans that had a flat bottom and had ears on the sides to side mount off a grain auger. 

[Ed Kennell 38,681]

I cut the bent ends off a rocker plate and used it as a base plate for a solid mount on my low rider custom.    Scroll down to see the pics.  May give you some ideas.

 

[kpinnc 12,524]

3 hours ago, Marv said:

If you have the cradle, there should not be an issue with the hood. I have a C111 with that set up, which is like the 1975 C160.

Thank you Marv. I know the hood changed ever so slightly at some point for the C models. Wasn’t sure about the height of the hinge either. 

[Racinbob 11,232]

There will be speed bumps along the way but nothing that can't be easily overcome. I'm not dealing with swapping a wobble engine with a solid one but it does show me what some of the issues could be. Here's the wobble plate for the Dino C121 I'm currently working on. The main thing is the elimination of the rubber mounts. You can see how I did that. 

 

 

There are things on the engine that have to be supported from the mounting plate and not the frame when the wobblesolators are used. Note the lower PTO loop and muffler supports. Not important on a solid mount conversion but it makes a difference with a conversion like you're doing. In your case I would think using mounting bolts and spacers to mount the engine directly to the frame would be best. You can't just make a spacer plate because there's a protrusion on the bottom of the oil pan that drops down in that rectangular opening on the plate. The oil drain is tapped into the bottom of that protrusion as well. With the four bolts and spacers holding the engine at the correct height you should be able to use the original frame mounted brackets from your 1975 for the bottom of the PTO loop and your original loop will work. 

If I would have had the correct PTO parts from a solid mount tractor I would have gone the four bolt method but I had the parts for a wobble mount and decided to make things work. Simply buying the solid mounts that are available would have been easier but not as much fun. 

 

I realize my situation is different from yours but I hope this helps with your thought process as you ponder what you need to do.

[fourwheelhorseman 320]

2 hours ago, Racinbob said:

In your case I would think using mounting bolts and spacers to mount the engine directly to the frame would be best. You can't just make a spacer plate because there's a protrusion on the bottom of the oil pan that drops down in that rectangular opening on the plate. 

I have not spent much time on it yet, still in the planning process and will most likely get on it after Christmas,I had thought about starting with 1/2” spacers to see if that was enough. I’ll have to measure the holes on the block vs the holes in my frame to see if I’ll have to drill any extra holes. I had not taken k to consideration any PTO mounts.. thanks for the heads up!

[Racinbob 11,232]

28 minutes ago, fourwheelhorseman said:

I have not spent much time on it yet, still in the planning process and will most likely get on it after Christmas,I had thought about starting with 1/2” spacers to see if that was enough. I’ll have to measure the holes on the block vs the holes in my frame to see if I’ll have to drill any extra holes. I had not taken k to consideration any PTO mounts.. thanks for the heads up!

 

Pondering points was the reason for my post. It's well spent time. First, basically ignore the four 3/8" bolts sticking up through the plate with the loose nuts. Those are there only to keep the plate up off the workbench as the paint cures more. I can't get you a precise measurement for the thickness of the spacers because I ran into an oil drain clearance issue. Since it will be a few days before you get at it I can get it to you by then. I'm going to say it's probably closer to 1". Better yet, maybe someone who has an unmodified wobble mount can measure it for you. 

[fourwheelhorseman 320]

51 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

 

Pondering points was the reason for my post. It's well spent time. First, basically ignore the four 3/8" bolts sticking up through the plate with the loose nuts. Those are there only to keep the plate up off the workbench as the paint cures more. I can't get you a precise measurement for the thickness of the spacers because I ran into an oil drain clearance issue. Since it will be a few days before you get at it I can get it to you by then. I'm going to say it's probably closer to 1". Better yet, maybe someone who has an unmodified wobble mount can measure it for you. 

I’ve got the unmodified wobbler mount and planned on measuring it. I’ll take some photos and try and document my journey when I start. Thanks everyone you’ve gave me plenty to think on!

[Racinbob 11,232]

Take a look at @Ed Kennell thread on his low rider. I just did and I would have seen it sooner. I like the way he modified the engine plate way better than what I did. To the point that I might just change mine. It still has the lower mount for the PTO loop and it's a clean setup. I don't think the front support for the muffler is needed on a solid mount engine. I don't have one on my other tractors. I'm thinking that the wobble mount shook so much that it was needed. It looks like he used 1/2" spacers plus the plate thickness. That's pretty close to what I thought. I don't think that +/- 1/8"-1/4" would be an issue.

[Ed Kennell 38,681]

22 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

. It looks like he used 1/2" spacers plus the plate thickness. 

That's exactly what I did Bob. And the only reason I raised the engine 1/2" was due to the oil pan hitting the steering shaft.   I didn't need a PTO so I also cut the hoop bracket off.

Using this plate with spacers would allow total XYZ positioning of the engine to match the belt guard location.

[pfrederi 17,885]

Really simple I put a shaker mount K-341 engine directly on a Charger frame.     Just need 4 spacers and a couple washers. I think I had to drill two holes (front) in the frame.  The drop down part of oil pan fits between the frame rails and is above the steering shaft,   Also have to get a piece of angle iron to make the bottom mount for the PTO hoop.

 

 

[Racinbob 11,232]

57 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Really simple I put a shaker mount K-341 engine directly on a Charger frame.     Just need 4 spacers and a couple washers. I think I had to drill two holes (front) in the frame.  The drop down part of oil pan fits between the frame rails and is above the steering shaft,   Also have to get a piece of angle iron to make the bottom mount for the PTO hoop.

 

 

There you go @fourwheelhorseman

He can give you the correct spacer thickness. All our talk about the PTO loop can be ignored since you have what you need on the frame already.

[fourwheelhorseman 320]

15 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

There you go @fourwheelhorseman

He can give you the correct spacer thickness. All our talk about the PTO loop can be ignored since you have what you need on the frame already.

Awsome!!! Thanks!