Balancing Gears - in or out

[Butch 194]

T-Mo is your engine isolated or is bolted directly to the frame?

[illinilefttackle 399]

:D I left mine out-because of Brian Millers advice-and - like has been said ,they must be a BEAR to time. No noticeable change in the vibration-maybe a little a very low idle-which I don't do anyway because of the "splash" oil system. _AL :hide:

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,496]

Butch,

My K321 is iso-mounted - I did replace the iso-mounts on C-141 before I placed the engine on the tractor. My other C, the C-125, and the rebuilt engine in the C-141 vibrates as much as the C-125 does.

[mattd860 162]

Just to give this a quick update. I just rebuilt my K301 motor (spec # 473400) with cast iron oil pan mounted directly to the frame. The engine had two balancing gears which I removed and never replaced after the rebuild.

The engine now runs just as smooth as before in all RPMs. I really don't notice a difference at all and I'm very glad they're out as it's two less things I need to worry about.

[rickv1957 72]

Having rebuilt many Kohler engines,I have always left them out with no noticeable difference,Rick

[dgjks6 6]

I can't get on Brian Millers website to see what he recommended, but I was discussing this issue with the guy who is machining my k181.

His advice on balance gears was as follows.

If the engine is bolted directly to the frame leave them out.

If the are engine mounts and bushings put them back.

[gomer gump 8]

just rebuilt 416-8 kohler magnum 12 took out balance gears run,s like a top . be sure to not over tighten the rod cap if you change rod and piston engine won,t turn over found that out the hard way . also the engine oil sensor was in a million pieces inside the motor lt blue color make sure if you have this problem to get all the pieces out especially by the comp release assy dug an dug them out an just when i thought had all pieces out more appeared a real pain in the rear . those little pieces will get behined the comp release spr assy and cause it to not release properly bad design just took oil sensor out pluged hole . just keep a close eye on oiol level an leaks you,ll be fine . friend told me the clips holding the balance gears in get weak an will come off ,,,this is possible but my 416 ,s 1989 never came off . if they did come loose would destroy motor in a second . won,t put any back in my tractors

[illinilefttackle 399]

I left mine out-because of Brian Millers advice-and - like has been said ,they must be a BEAR to time. No noticeable change in the vibration-maybe a little a very low idle-which I don't do anyway because of the "splash" oil system. _AL

I left mine out-because of Brian Millers advice-and - like has been said ,they must be a BEAR to time. No noticeable change in the vibration-maybe a little a very low idle-which I don't do anyway because of the "splash" oil system. _AL

Here is the video of the first start-ups of this engine-decide for yourself-Thanks-Al

[Wheel-N-It 2,969]

This summer I had the K-341 rebuilt in my 1975 Cub Cadet 1650. It is a rubber mounted engine, and was not factory equipped with the balance gears. My engine builder says to leave them out if they come so equipped. He builds alot of puller Kohler engines.

I think after reading this thread, the answer to the question is now simple,.............. Leave them out.

[Ken B 3,164]

Last week I was on vacation and I was using my sons C-161 for various duties around the homestead. My son took her for a ride down the road and man you could hear them noisy balance gears from at least 150 ft away. I decided right then I had better get em out before they find a way to get out on their own. It wasn't until 10 pm that evening till I got a chance to start tearing into it. Just before midnight the motor was back on the tractor and I fired it up real quick. Much quieter, they were for sure, loose as a goose!

[mattd860 162]

Ken - I left them out of my C-161 rebuild too. At low idle the motor shakes really badly but I just adjusted the carb/linkage so the motor cannot idle low any more. Other than that, the motor runs smooth as can be.

[oaktown1987 82]

they say theres no point

[Short Circuit 27]

I just came across this thread today as I ponder the balance gear question, and thought I would contribute to the old discussion. I don't think anybody contributed since 2013!

 

I am rebuilding a totally worn out K321. (cylinder sleeve installed, new std. piston, and .020" under rod, wondering about the balance gears). I talked to a guy at Lakota Racing about the balance gears and he recommended leaving them in for a stock engine.

 

In reading the threads on the balance gears, no one has ever mentioned the reason Kohler put them in there in the first place. In looking at the orientation of the gears and how they are timed to the crankshaft, I see the reason for them. There are two axis of vibration in the engine (this is a simple version). The major axis is the vertical axis of the piston/rod assembly in the cylinder moving up and down as the crank rotates. This vibration is opposed or "countered" by the counter weights on the crank.

 

The other "axis" of vibration is the lower end of the rod on the crank as it rotates around, and this vibration is "countered" by the balance gears, but only in a horizontal axis at 90 degrees to the crankshaft, in other words front to back on a Wheel Horse. On a JD, Cub, or other application where the crankshaft is pointing front to back, the balance gear axis is horizontally left to right (90 degrees to the crank).

 

I have two 1973 WH tractors with K321's. I am currently rebuilding one, but the other one is original engine and it runs really smooth even at idle. It still has the balance gears in it. I'm going to reinstall the balance gears after checking the needle bearings and the side clearance, to minimize the front to back vibration in the Kohler engine.

 

Just my two cents worth...

 

 

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,496]

On the smaller hp engines, i.e. 4, 6, 7, 8, and I think, 10 hp, Kohler did not put in balance gears as they felt they weren't needed.   Also, on some of the earlier 12 hp, and maybe the 14 hp engines, Kohler didn't put them in.  Kohler put them there to reduce vibration as mainly a way of making their engines more attractive to new buyers.  More vibration may turn off potential buyers of their engines.

 

If you put the gears back in, be sure you replaced the bearings, be sure the gears are in good shape, and be sure you follow the correct procedure to install them.  Failure to do this and you will damage the engine.  If you have a shop do it, they better be experienced on Kohler K-series engines.

 

Bottom line, there is a higher risk of putting them in that leaving them out, if they're not installed properly.

[rtfbg 744]

On 7/17/2016 at 9:19 AM, T-Mo said:

On the smaller hp engines, i.e. 4, 6, 7, 8, and I think, 10 hp, Kohler did not put in balance gears as they felt they weren't needed.   Also, on some of the earlier 12 hp, and maybe the 14 hp engines, Kohler didn't put them in.  Kohler put them there to reduce vibration as mainly a way of making their engines more attractive to new buyers.  More vibration may turn off potential buyers of their engines.

 

If you put the gears back in, be sure you replaced the bearings, be sure the gears are in good shape, and be sure you follow the correct procedure to install them.  Failure to do this and you will damage the engine.  If you have a shop do it, they better be experienced on Kohler K-series engines.

 

Bottom line, there is a higher risk of putting them in that leaving them out, if they're not installed properly.

Don't know if you have this, want it, or have a place for it, but it is very well done. ...   

 

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Norman does a good job on videos.  I always enjoy watching them.

 

I have a M12 and a K341 at the machinist now being worked. Both had balancing gears, but I am not replacing them in either of the engines. We will see how long they last!

 

[Mickwhitt 4,642]

Just to reawaken this thread, is there any more information on running a Kohler engine without the balance gears?

I am just about to rebuild my engine which has the old style balance gears, I dont have a timing gauge and if I can leave them out then I will do.

Regards Mick 

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Both of the engines I described above are still going strong without them. I say leave em out!

[oldredrider 2,548]

The only thing you need you need to know about balance gears is, when they let go, your engine, and any time and money you put into the engine, is gone too.

[953 nut 55,321]

4 hours ago, Mickwhitt said:

if I can leave them out then I will

 

[Mickwhitt 4,642]

That's settled then, I did spend a good bit of time practising fitting the gears and timing them up, without the timing gauge. But I'm happier to leave them out than risk misstiming the engine or having a weak gear let go.

All gaskets have arrived so I'm going to start rebuilding the engine and see where that gets me.

Been chainsawing scrubby trees all week and could have used the pony to shift everything. 

Many thanks Mick 

[953 nut 55,321]

2 hours ago, Mickwhitt said:

I'm going to start rebuilding the engine and see where that gets me.

   Be mindful of all instructions, If any arts are not properly placed the engine could fail.   Any questions, please ask them before proceeding.

[Mickwhitt 4,642]

Hoping to follow the manual. But it ain't gonna be easy lol.

 

For starters timing the cam shaft, where do I position the valves?

 

Both closed at bdc?

[oldredrider 2,548]

The cam "times" the valves automatically. Just line up the crankshaft timing mark with the camshaft timing mark and they are set. Valve adjustment comes after the bottom end is buttoned up.

[Mickwhitt 4,642]

Oh yes, I have it, thoughts I'd seen something about cam timing but I'd read ahead to valve setting.

 

All going ok so far