PTO components rattling

[Alrashid2 310]

Hey guys. Noticed for whatever reason recently that my PTO on my 312-8 is chattering to no end. I notice it most if I'm not at full throttle, and yes I can hear it through my earplugs! Sounds like a constant, high pitched rattling like someone tapping on a glass or cymbal. While running I grabbed the little pin and clevis that holds it all onto the crankshaft, it stops - so it's definitely those components jiggling around.

 

Just wanted to ask if this is normal, any trick to tighten it up, and/or if I'm just being too OCD here haha. Wanted to make sure it wasn't a sign that my pulley was out of balance, or that I might have put together the assembly wrong. Thanks all!

Edited Friday at 07:52 PM by Alrashid2

[SylvanLakeWH 25,965]

Yes they rattle...

 

Normal.

[Alrashid2 310]

Thanks @sylvanlakewh . Funny the things you don't notice until after you break/tweak something - I was sitting there thinking, "Has it always done that??"

[Bar Nuthin 541]

I thought I read somewhere about someone attaching a spring to the PTO rod - but I don't recall where I saw it or how they attached it.

If anyone would know, it would be @peter lena

[Alrashid2 310]

interesting! So does the spring just put a hair bit of tension on the rod? 

 

I should have mentioned this only happens when PTO is OFF. If I push the rod forward and clamp the PTO to the clutch, rattling stops...

[peter lena 8,726]

@Bar Nuthin  @Alrashid2  literal gold mine for improvement , in that very sloppy area , did that years ago it starts at side of battery tray mounting area , eliminate the 1/2 "  of play with  metal / plastic washers , silicone grease , correct as you go ! that rod end can easily be threaded over with a , fine thread  die nut to match a threaded heim joint female fitting , also the swing arm going to the pto , engagement area , slide pin clip , can be  lightly extension spring  retained  to the lower end of swing arm retainer clip , stops noisy buzzing . this is basic improvement stuff , eliminate the problem , no noise or failures since change over , pete

 

[8ntruck 7,093]

My 1973 14-8 has a spring between the pto rod and the cam lever on the pto 'hoop'.  Don't remember exactly how it is attached.  One end of the spring goes into a small hole in the cam lever and a bracket or maybe a cotter pin through the rod.

[Alrashid2 310]

Thanks @peter lena! I'll look at it tonight - more tinkering... I better be careful this time!

 

@8ntruck I think I saw an old parts diagram online that showed that! Unfortunately, at the time I compared it to my 312-8's diagram and it looked like it wouldn't work for me. Wonder why Wheel Horse did away with the spring setup?

[peter lena 8,726]

@Alrashid2 personally do not  understand the problem / and cure starring  right at you , that slide pin clip that connects , the swing arm to the PTO CONE  assembly , is mounted backwards.  the left lower corner spring wind circle , should be on the right corner side , then a light extension spring , goes from there to lower , hitch pin clip swing arm , tying it all together , stopping vibrating noise . on the other hand , doubt that the pto cone , has ever had a inner needle bearing hi temp grease  application , that also has to be very light , or it slings to clutch face , the outer bearing is sealed , napa has it , probably noisy and rough . replace it . wheel horse was always minimal  at lonnection areas . also changed out that lever rod end TRUNDLE, for a female heim joint , smooth . solid .quiet . look at my improved lever action picture , of the improved . washered up lever start point , no noise or vibration , easy , pete   

[Racinbob 11,232]

@Alrashid2 There's no need to reinvent the wheel on a PTO setup that had worked great for decades and, in my opinion is the best one Wheel Horse has ever used. That hitch pin will rattle with the PTO disengaged. It stops when you engage it because that puts tension on it. I noticed that on my 1976 over 45 years ago. It was annoying. Digging deep into my rocket scientist, engineering brain surgeon type noggin I came up with this complex fix.

 

 

 

That was supposed to be an experimental temporary fix to see if it worked. I did that in the 70's. Annoying rattle gone. Go figure. An electrician using electrical tape. I did coat it with something but I don't remember what.  I'm still experimenting though. I'm testing the lifespan of the complex fix. +/- 45 years and counting. 

 

 

. 

[Racinbob 11,232]

Your hitch pin is correct but it really doesn't matter what direction it's put in. There is a spring (#13) but it's connected to the pivot plate to the rod and won't do anything about the pin rattle. I don't use it. 

 

[peter lena 8,726]

@Racinbob  looking right at it , notice the lower HITCH PIN CLIP , at lower swing arm mount ?  turn the upper pin around so the hole is on the same  side as lower hitch pin clip , connect with an  extension spring , holds a perfect , silent tension , just a little tweak , its the sloppy connection rod ,about 1/2 " of washers , start fit  on the trunnion  mount point , and side of battery tray that adds  to noise and irregular movement . finish with a die nutted fine threading ,  female heim joint , and its ridiculously  smooth / silent / effortless, all 3 of mine , silently in use for years , only if you want to , pete   

[8ntruck 7,093]

I'll add a couple more comments here:

 

Spring pin #30.  The proper part here is a spiroll pin.  This is a spring pin that is two layers thick, instead of the typical hardware parts drawer spring pin that is only a single layer. The single layer spring pin works for a quick fix, but will break sooner than the spiroll pin.  A Toro parts dealer should be able to supply the proper pin.

 

Hitch pin #28.  Watch that the head on the hitch pin does not rub on the end of the clutch bell #37. 

 

When I got my C-195, the pto was inoperative.  The clutch bell was bolted on the crank.  Closer inspection revealed that the end of the clutch bell was worn down to the groove for the #35 snap ring.  The only thing in that area to cause the wear is the hitch pin - or maybe the PO substituted an alternate piece of hardware that rubbed on the clutch bell.  Whatever happened, the fix was to replace the clutch bell.  Turns out that the pto on a C-195 is a cone clutch, not the common flat clutch - longer search time & higher part cost.

[Alrashid2 310]

@peter lena looked over your post - very good ideas there! Unfortunately my rattling isn't from the lever - I've now realized the rattling is from Parts 29 and 31 in the diagram posted previously in this discussion. Not exactly sure how I could tighten that up other than adding more tension to the PTO lever which obviously can't do as that would cause friction between the bell and clutch. @Racinbob that is exactly what I tried yesterday! That's how I figured out it's not the pin so much as it is 29 and 31 rattling.

 

Peter, great idea with the spring between the clips! Let me go look at that. Have to source a spring though.... 

 

I honestly don't use the PTO at all as I'm not mowing or blowing with this. I wonder if I could just remove the assembly entirely? I only use the PTO lever when I want to be able to manually turn over the engine to watch belt movement! 

 

[lynnmor 7,354]

You can remove the entire mess and be done with it.

 

One final thought, I see a rough surface where the PTO brake rides, perhaps the brake pad is spent and the bell is bouncing off the rough surface.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,965]

Yes you can remove it...

[Alrashid2 310]

How far do I go? Do I leave the clutch in place or take that off too?

 

I'll look at the rough surface but I think that sits below where the brake hits

[Racinbob 11,232]

I don't use the brake either. Doesn't work well and just gets in the way. 

[Handy Don 12,467]

24 minutes ago, Alrashid2 said:

How far do I go? Do I leave the clutch in place or take that off too?

 

Plate can come off as well.

[peter lena 8,726]

@Alrashid2  removed my pto brake pad set ups years ago , just felt it was part of  overall  drag issue , honestly since removal , and verifying  lucas 550 deg  chassis lube, the rotational  anything related . is smooth / quiet / silent , just like I want it , when I engage pto lever its quiet , effortless . have also done all my mower spindles , no screaming , whyining , from the decks , have cleaned out  and re greased  every related bearing , related belts are all happy , no fraying . wear at all , also done IDLER PULLEYS , deck drives by hand at  mule  drive down belt , pto lever engagement  is amazingly   smooth / quiet , I LIKE THAT , pete  

[Alrashid2 310]

So, I only had a few minutes to test this out, but came up with a simple solution!

 

I zip tied the clevis pin to the swing mount. That tightened up the movemenr of the pin and little bracket piece and seemed to have stopped the rattling!

[SylvanLakeWH 25,965]

Zip ties keep the world together... 

 

[Handy Don 12,467]

Zip ties, WD40, and Duct Tape -- three great inventions

[gt14rider 798]

@Alrashid2you said it didn't make noise when engaged it just keep it engaged it'll be there if you need it.

[kpinnc 12,539]

On 12/21/2024 at 8:28 AM, Racinbob said:

Digging deep into my rocket scientist, engineering brain surgeon type noggin I came up with this complex fix.

Yet another example of prints I will be using when I start my t-shirt company!