416-8 with M16s Project

[OutdoorEnvy 1,599]

So my next project is this 416-8.  It's either an 87 or 88 year as it has the M16s Kohler.  The sticker is too faded to read anything on it.  But the price was right for a non-runner and I have been trying to be patient on the right deal for a single cylinder 16 to come a long and it finally did.  Story on this one is the seller purchased the place a couple months ago and this and some other items were parked behind a shed and he decided to see if they would sell before he pushed em to the curb for big trash day.  He knows nothing about it.  So this is a total start from square one and I'll wear the hat of investigator for a while.  Should be fun though and give myself some entertainment, that's what we'll call it for now.  I'll plan to get it back to normal working condition and keep it as a main user is the goal.  I'll share progress and may need guidance as well.  Let's get started with a rundown of what I have done and where I am at with it. 

 

As it came, also had a 42" RD deck

 

    

 

 

I did wash it off to start and gave it an oil rub down to see how the paint would respond

 

 

So first thing is the front tires have sidewall cracking and won't hold air for more than 10 mins.  Also the battery cables were crusty and connectors were spinning.  So tubes for the front tires and replacing the battery cables was first in line.  Cables are 4 AWG.

 

 

Wrestled with the tires and someone tried some tire flat repair gunk.  This stuff is gross and always seems to rust the rims away.  Glad to have that job over though

 

 

So I believe I found the main reason this rig was parked.  One of the rear hubs is ruined as the keyway was rubbed half a way and the woodruff key and hub essentially ate away at each other.  The axle shaft does seem fine thank goodness.  I think they attempted to fix a transmission oil leak and then didn't put the hub on right.  So I was lucky enough that a friend was sourcing some parts from another guy and he had a 1 1/8" hub for a decent price so he was making the trip the next day.  So whether it was luck or coincidence I'll take it either way.  So I do have the hub and woodruff key ready to go.  I ordered an axle seal for it and that is on the way.  I'll recycle this bad hub into a hub puller so not a total loss!

 

 

So the other bad news is this does have a push button start wired straight to the solenoid...lovely.  It does work and engine does turn over and seems to have compression and did have spark, Great!  But I would like this to work as intended with the key ignition switch so I dove into that area.  So the ignition switch did test bad with my multimeter.  It was pretty rusted up so I did get a new switch and fully tested and it works as expected.  So hooked it up and no signal to the solenoid.  Downloaded the wiring diagram and have been going down that rabbit hole for hours.  Still trying to follow the solenoid command flow.  First stop under the shifter plate revealed some chewing carnage.

 

If anyone has a pic or knows which of these 3 wires goes where that would be most helpful! 

 

 

So getting those refitted with new connectors and trying to figure out which ones connect to the clutch switch.  I tested the switch for continuity and it is working.  But I have 3 wires and only 2 plug into it.  I'm not sure where the 3rd wire goes right now.  Still studying the diagrams.  There was a parking brake switch under the shifter plate and it tested good as well.  I have traced power with the key switch on to the PTO switch but have not had luck tracing the solenoid signal.  So that's kind of where I am now.  I have ordered some new parts for maintenance items as I get it ready to run. 

 

Next things will be to continue trouble shooting the solenoid signal.  I will roll this out once I get the axle seal in and put the hub back on and wash it off while the seat fender is off.  I also realized the drive belt and clutch pulley is gone.  So I'll be sourcing those as well.  The rest seems to be there as best I can tell.  I'm sure there's more though waiting to be discovered.  I'll post updates as make progress or may be a cry for help. 

 

 

 

[Skwerl58 729]

Nice find! I have a 414-8 and I call it the beast because of how it is a hard worker. I struggle with wiring and electrical stuff so hats off to you in checking and keeping those switches operational. Keep working on it and clean the carb and you will have that thing running soon.

[peter lena 8,822]

@OutdoorEnvylike the oil down paint , help ,  a mineral oil . on top of a penetrating oil , really holds the lubricant soak in stage , enhancing recovery , have any alligator  clip test wires ? making it easy to jump over  problem areas . would almost think with the frayed debris  wiring , it would be easy to track down the connection areas , have also used  wiring cable wrap to all my stuff , and move wiring , chafe areas , eliminate source of  problem . your set up looks common , to a regular , brush off of  operational  , look overs . might also try some 303 , vinyl  recovery to black engine plastic trim / dash area . basically stay to the vital stuff , as you find and gain on it . done a few of those , mechanical / wiring  is base line , agree also on the carb , drop bowl  , restart anything on a seperate gallon of heavily treated fresh gas , pete  

[ebinmaine 68,742]

Niiiiice save!

 

On that hub, some folks can cut a new groove in them.  

@WHX?? may be able to comment here.  

 

Carefully check the carb for throttle shaft wear.  

 

Remember to utilize the "New to the Herd" thread.  Excellent tool there.  

 

 

 

[SylvanLakeWH 26,101]

[OutdoorEnvy 1,599]

37 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Niiiiice save!

 

On that hub, some folks can cut a new groove in them.  

@WHX?? may be able to comment here.  

 

Carefully check the carb for throttle shaft wear.  

 

Remember to utilize the "New to the Herd" thread.  Excellent tool there.  

 

 

 

 

Yeah that's a great thread!  I'll inspect it.  I have cleaned the carb already and it was pretty clean all in all.  The throttle cable had been broke off at the lever but I think I have saved it but cutting a few inches off the metal tube and putting a new Z-bend in it.  It barely reaches but does, we'll see over time how it does.  The choke cable was seized but a few days of penetrating oil soaking and it has freed up.  The gas tank has old gas that I'll need to clean out and already have new fuel lines and filter ready to be put on.   

[WHX?? 49,431]

4 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

On that hub, some folks can cut a new groove in them.  

@WHX?? may be able to comment here.  

 

Oh yeah totally fixable...

Edited December 21, 2024 by WHX??

[ebinmaine 68,742]

10 hours ago, WHX?? said:

 

Oh yeah totally fixable...

 

 

I found a few I should send you sometime.  

[ebinmaine 68,742]

@WHX??

Anyone here on Redsquare putting full length hub key grooves in axles? 

[953 nut 56,091]

20 hours ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

If anyone has a pic or knows which of these 3 wires goes where that would be most helpful!

Looking at the photo from our manuals section posted below I think those wires were once connected to the PTO switch. The smaller black with a tracer color wires would go to the idiot lights.

Your starter solenoid signal feed passes through the low oil level relay, it is probably a metal can relay. There is a five wire connector (with only four wires) that goes to your engine, two of these wires will activate the relay on low oil level. If you unplug this connector for testing purposes it will take the low oil switch out of the equation. The other two wires are an ignition kill wire and a charging system wire and won't interfere with the solenoid signal.

I will follow along to see what you find.

 

[kpinnc 12,743]

10 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Anyone here on Redsquare putting full length hub key grooves in axles? 

My Bronco has them. I wish I had a mill and could do it myself. So much better than woodruff keys! 
 

I would make every axle I have use standard key stock. Another benefit is that penetrating oil could actually reach into the hub if the keyway was visible. 

[OutdoorEnvy 1,599]

Success!  Well after more hours than I'd care to admit to of probing around I think I finally figured it out.  So in the pic below of the PTO Switch the prong that is bare is what the purple striped wire set was connected to.  I was not getting signal from that when key was in the start position.  I had traced the signal through the low oil sensor to the relay and at the PTO Switch.  But no signal was making it to the clutch switch.  So after probing around I realized the bare prong beside it was getting signal when the key was in the start position.  So I switch the purple wires to that one and I have start signal all the way to the solenoid wire.  So I guess someone switched these at some point?  That's my best guess as there are no other wires that are not connected.  So the push button in the last pic is removed and I think we are back to a functioning electrical system with the key switch and all safety switches still connected.  Outside of the ugly hole by the throttle lever I think we are in a good position going forward. 

 

Next up I am waiting on parts to arrive.  I need to replace the axle seal and get the new good hub on so I can wheel it out for a wash.  Then we have a clutch pulley, drive belt, and other engine tune up and maintenance to do like the gas tank cleaning and new fuel lines, etc.  Parts can't arrive soon enough!  

 

 

 

[OutdoorEnvy 1,599]

Well more progress is being made.  The lift handle was locked up and the lift bar for the mower deck and other attachments was being held up with bale wire.  So soaked that for a couple days and some hammer tapping got it freed up and attached the lift cable back to the arm and it's working normal.  Also the rig has a sleeve hitch in the back which was an added bonus.  I tested the fuel pump and it is working and looks to be the original metal one.  Another bonus! 

 

So next thing I want to do is clean around the engine and flywheel thoroughly and remove the head to clean the carbon off and do a valve job.  So the M16 started fighting back at this point.  The phillips screw in the pic is not wanting to come off.  It has a wrench tube under it and I have wrenched on that and both at the same time and it is not moving.  I am afraid to go any harder for fear of damaging the head.  So I'm going to drill it out and use an extractor tool and then replace with a bolt. 

 

 

 

 

Next issue is the starter is working but it is not retracting back.  And the first thing I have never encountered is needing to remove the oil dipstick tube to remove the starter!  I don't see another way around it but if there is please let me know.  Otherwise this will have to wait till I can get it rolling to clean it off before removing so debris doesn't get in.  But the rigs moving a long...

 

Edited December 26, 2024 by OutdoorEnvy

[ebinmaine 68,742]

4 hours ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

and remove the head to clean the carbon off

 

Also do a hand plane on the head while it's off. 

Time consuming... and worth it.  

 

4 hours ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

needing to remove the oil dipstick tube to remove the starter! 

 

I've never done one but I've heard that's a possibility.  

@953 nut

@Ed Kennell

 

 

[Ed Kennell 39,036]

5 hours ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

needing to remove the oil dipstick tube to remove the starter! 

Yes Sir, remove it.   Two bolts at the bottom...don't try to screw it off.    I did a detailed post on the removal and installation of the starter and how to keep it from falling apart.

I also add a sleeve of rubber hose on the tube to insulate the 12v. starter post.       If I can find the post, I'll add a link.

[OutdoorEnvy 1,599]

36 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

Also do a hand plane on the head while it's off. 

Time consuming... and worth it. 

 

Yes indeed!   I was planning to check it with a feeler gauge but I'm sure it needs it. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Yes Sir, remove it.   Two bolts at the bottom...don't try to screw it off.    I did a detailed post on the removal and installation of the starter and how to keep it from falling apart.

I also add a sleeve of rubber hose on the tube to insulate the 12v. starter post.       If I can find the post, I'll add a link.

 

Thanks for verifying.  It seems straight forward enough.  I do miss the K series, or smaller blocks, where it is in the top of the block.  This one has a housing for the tube that attaches to the side of the block.  I'm sure I'll need to drain the oil before doing it.  Which in this case isn't terrible since replacing the oil is a given.  But for future cases where it might need to be removed that is kind of a pain.  I'll be sure the starter is cleaned and functioning properly while I'm going through it.  

[Ed Kennell 39,036]

1 minute ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

I'm sure I'll need to drain the oil before doing it. 

No need to drain my M12.   Use the dip stick on the outside of the tube to measure the oil level.

[Ed Kennell 39,036]

Found it.

 

[rick 237]

I didn't have to drain the oil on my M14 either to remove the dipstick tube.  I did make sure that I had a new gasket.

Use what you want, but Kohler specifies a lubricant (pn 52 357 01) for the starter drive. It works very well.

[953 nut 56,091]

On 12/26/2024 at 2:20 PM, OutdoorEnvy said:

The phillips screw in the pic is not wanting to come off.

Some times a slight turn in the clockwise direction prior to going counterclockwise will help loosen that dissimilar metal corrosion.

The starter bendix drive should be lubricated with dry graphite lubricant, no oil.

[OutdoorEnvy 1,599]

29 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Some times a slight turn in the clockwise direction prior to going counterclockwise will help loosen that dissimilar metal corrosion.

I tried about everything with it and an impact gun.  It doesn’t even look rusty under the pan but it’s holding on for dear life.  Left turn drill bits and a screw extractor are next.  

[953 nut 56,091]

50 minutes ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

 Left turn drill bits and a screw extractor are next.

Good luck, the heat from the drill bit may help loosen it, if not I would just drill it out going progressively larger to 13/64" if you are centered on the old threads then tap it out to 1/4-20 again.