New Blue TSC Belt, blue dust on engine block

[Alrashid2 286]

Hey guys. This came up after I replaced my drive belt due to a bucking Wheel Horse doing wheelies everytime I let off the clutch. Thinking the belt was worn out a bit, as this one was slightly tighter and solved the issue: belt was easy to slip now when engaging clutch, and the pedal engaged the clutch much lower in travel which made it easier on the ankle. 

 

Anyway, I replaced it last week and noticed last night a bunch of blue dust on the engine block, sticking to some oil residue on the engine. Uh oh. Also noticed this morning a small amount of dust on one of the wire guards as the belt enters the belt guard from the engine pulley. Refer to Reply #65 in the original wheelie post: 

 

What has been discussed already: 

 

• Belt is installed correctly and when manually turning pulleys, feel/hear no rubbing
• Checked the Belt Guard (right hand kick panel) and it seems installed correctly. Did notice that the belt just barely skims the belt guard on the side closest to the axle/clutch pulleys. Is that normal? Or is there supposed to be space between the belt guard and belt?
• Did look at the wire belt guards (top and bottom) that are attached to the engine near the engine pulley. They are not contacting the belt with clutch engaged from what I can tell, but will confirm tonight
• Looking at the belt itself I can't see any specific wear on the top, sides, bottom etc. Looks normal.

 

Any ideas? Sounds like the dust is not normal based on some previous replies in that previous thread. My only hunch at this point is that I am letting the belt slip a bit too much when re-engaging the clutch... Not sure if slippage of the belt on the engine pulley would cause dust like that. I also did clean the dust off so I can keep an eye out if it continues to be produced or not... 

 

Doing some additional thinking this morning on my way to work... I'm pretty sure the Kohler K series engines turn counter clockwise when looking at the right side (PTO, belt side). Just digging in for clues... If I had some dust under the pulley, and on top of the pulley, maybe that would indicate the dust is being produced before the engine pulley... or the belt/pulley is spinning so fast it's just whipping it all around. Hard to say. Curious what you all think

 

Thanks guys! Always such a help here. 

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:56 PM by Alrashid2
added photo

[Handy Don 12,436]

Please edit and remove your comment that belts stretch. They don’t. Belts are made with strong internal cords wrapped with rubber and fabric, just like truck and car tires..

The sides of the belt do gradually wear off allowing the belt to drop lower into the groove of the pulley but their length has not changed.

Belts wear out and seem longer, and sometimes deteriorate from age or corruption, but they do not stretch.

Edited Tuesday at 05:31 PM by Handy Don

[Alrashid2 286]

2 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Please edit and remove your comment that belts stretch. They don’t. Belts are made with strong internal cords wrapped with rubber and fabric, just like truck and car tires..

The sides of the belt do gradually wear off allowing the belt to drop lower into the groove of the pulley but their length has not changed.

Belt wear out, and sometimes deteriorate from age or corruption, but they do not stretch.

Interesting, is that specific to these fabric belts? I have 100% had serpentine belts stretch, though not by much at all. We were able to prove this with an experiment where we measured the length precisely new versus later on, back in the day. 

[Handy Don 12,436]

10 minutes ago, Alrashid2 said:

Interesting, is that specific to these fabric belts? I have 100% had serpentine belts stretch, though not by much at all. We were able to prove this with an experiment where we measured the length precisely new versus later on, back in the day. 

Don't take what I say alone. The research HAS been done and is out there on the all-knowing internet.

The kevlar fabric cover on certain belts is only that--a way to slow down the wear on the sides and to give a less “grabby” grip on the pulley sheaves. The threads in the covering are not longitudinal (as are the internal cords) so they do not contribute to the strength of the belt. 

Serpentine belts are among the strongest out there but due to the way they are used, they wear on both top and bottom. Hence they are made thin and with high density rubber and roll over the pulleys instead of being squeezed and rubbed between the angled sides of pulley sheaves. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:06 PM by Handy Don

[Bar Nuthin 460]

1 hour ago, Alrashid2 said:

I replaced it last week and noticed last night a bunch of blue dust on the engine block

 

One way or another, it will eventually stop.

[Alrashid2 286]

9 minutes ago, Bar Nuthin said:

 

One way or another, it will eventually stop.

Ha! I'm assuming you are being facetious here?  

[Alrashid2 286]

Doing some googling over lunch and found this post:

 

This is on a mower deck belt and not a drive belt like mine, but same dust. A reply on there said it is from rusty/rough pulley surfaces, and there was no conclusion to the post after that... I'd believe that, and if that is the case, I think this will just inevitably happen when slipping the belt. To be perfectly honest, if this isn't ultra detrimental, I rather a belt wear a little faster than deal with replacing the pulleys. I've already sanded down and cleaned the surfaces as well as I can. What do you guys think? 

 

Will still confirm tonight if I have time and take a look

 

[Bar Nuthin 460]

1 hour ago, Alrashid2 said:

Ha! I'm assuming you are being facetious here?  

 

Yes, it pays to have a light-hearted outlook as you're working out the gremlins. All things resolve themselves - one way or another. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,090]

When a belt enters a pulley it slides in and when it exits it slides out. If the sides of the V are rough it wears the sides of the belt resulting in the dust.

In this case you can remove the belt from the engine pulley and run the engine with a flat file held to the sides of the V. It will remove any rough lumps of rust causing the wear. Total rust removal not necessary. Just make it smooth.

Driven pulleys need to be done by hand.

[Alrashid2 286]

Thanks for chiming in @gwest_ca. My hunch is also that the V is roughed up.

 

I gotta ask you and the other guys here though... is it a major issue? Yes, I know it technically causes more wear, but obviously the old belt on from the previous owner lasted a while... if the rough drive pulley will make the belt last 20 years instead of 50 years, then I'll just run it! It was really annoying to get to that drive pulley and took a lot of finangling to get the belt in there past guards and PTO such. I hate to go in there again and just make things worst...

[Ed Kennell 38,598]

Keep us posted as you find more evidence of where the belt is wearing.i.e. on the sides, outside, or inside.     Look for shiny spots on the belt guards.

You can clean the engine and tranny vee pulley sides while they are running.  Tape some emery cloth on a stick for a sanding tool.

[Alrashid2 286]

WIll do, sir! If I remember right, there was a shiny spot on the belt guard (bottom left side near the clutch/tran pulleys) - thinking maybe I can bend that every so slightly to give some clearance. 

 

1 minute ago, Ed Kennell said:

You can clean the engine and tranny vee pulley sides while they are running.  Tape some emery cloth on a stick for a sanding tool.

Assuming this should be done with the belt OFF right? 

[Ed Kennell 38,598]

3 minutes ago, Alrashid2 said:

WIll do, sir! If I remember right, there was a shiny spot on the belt guard (bottom left side near the clutch/tran pulleys) - thinking maybe I can bend that every so slightly to give some clearance. 

 

Assuming this should be done with the belt OFF right? 

You would need  to remove the belt guard.     Good time to check for shiny spots and bend that back edge of the flange down.    Belt on or off?  Depends how experienced and comfortable you are working around unguarded rotating equipment and moving belts.   

[Alrashid2 286]

Good points Ed. By belt flange, you're talking about the bottom piece of metal on the bottom left of belt guard piece right?

 

How much space is suppose to be between that and the belt?

[953 nut 55,734]

Your drive pulley turns counter clockwise and the pattern of the "Blue Dust" leads me to think the heavy wire belt guide on the engine is contacting the back of the belt.

[Alrashid2 286]

So, picture time!

 

I'll try to outline what i see. Not finding any answer anywhere on what clearances are normal so some help would be great... Even if one of you could look at one of your 300 series horses. Thanks guys 

 

Going to make a few replies in a row to explain what is what.

 

1. Belt guard at bottom left rear axle pulley: definitely touching on the left side, while there is at least a half inch gap on right side where it exits. The angle of the guard doesn't match the angle of the belt.

 

Should I bend this guard? Or maybe add some spacers between the guard and bolts to add some clearance?

[Alrashid2 286]

2. Wire guards x2 near drive pulley: when clutch engaged, there's around quarter inch of clearance on top guard and a half inch on bottom guard. When clutch is  disengaged (pedal down) though, belt touches both of them. Not sure if that is how they are supposed to act though.

[Alrashid2 286]

3. "Guard" to right of clutch pulley: shiny and blue. Not sure if that's normal though.

[Alrashid2 286]

ALSO WANTED TO ADD: drive pulley v is smooth as silk! Id only make it more rough by sanding 

[953 nut 55,734]

13 minutes ago, Alrashid2 said:

12 minutes ago, Alrashid2 said:

"Guard" to right of clutch pulley: shiny and blue.        Normal 

 

18 minutes ago, Alrashid2 said:

definitely touching on the left side, while there is at least a half inch gap on right side where it exits. The angle of the guard doesn't match the angle of the belt.

 

Should I bend this guard?           A bit of a downward tweak couldn't hurt. 

When clutch is  disengaged (pedal down) though, belt touches both of them         Normal

 

[Alrashid2 286]

Thanks for looking @953 nut. Sounds like my only issue then is the belt guard on the bottom left... seems weird to me it'd throw dust all the way over to the drive pulley but what do I know!

 

Just to confirm, the belt is NOT supposed to touch that guard? 

 

EDIT: ended up putting a few thick washers as spacers between the guard and frame on the back bolt. Now the belt does not touch the guard!

Edited Wednesday at 02:36 AM by Alrashid2

[Alrashid2 286]

NEW UPDATE:

I think I figured out where the dust is coming from, but I found another issue in result ha... go figure!

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

Your drive pulley turns counter clockwise and the pattern of the "Blue Dust" leads me to think the heavy wire belt guide on the engine is contacting the back of the belt.

 

@953 nut you were right. When the engine is off, clutch engaged, the belt doesn't touch that Heavy Wire Belt Guide. However, with the engine running, the belt is flopping up and down and definitely rubbing the back of the belt. I think that is what was creating the dust and whipping it around the drive pulley.

 

So, I loosened the bolt there and just slightly moved that Wire Guide downward. However, once I do that and the belt doesn't touch the guide when running any longer, now I get a very loud SQUEAL when pushing the clutch pedal in. I can hear it with engine at full throttle and with ear plugs in! Push it in, squeals. Let go, nothing. Push again, squeals. Hell, if I hold the clutch pedal down midway, it'll just continue to squeal until I push it all the way down or let off. 

 

When I push the Wire Guide back up, squealing stops. It's definitely coming from the drive pulley area - any idea what that is? Not sure if I should put the guide back tight and let it rub or give it clearance and deal with the squeaking? 

[Alrashid2 286]

Another update:

 

Scratch all I said before. I finally found the true culprit of the belt dust and wear.

 

The belt is rubbing the brake rod!

 

Tried to snap a photo from underneath, and one from up top with brake guard removed .

 

Solved the mystery! But I have no freaking clue how to fix this one...

 

My only idea at this point is to get under there with a file and file down that side of the brake rod 1/8" so theres some clearance... 

 

Anyone seen this before? Any ideas ?

Edited Wednesday at 04:04 AM by Alrashid2

[Bar Nuthin 460]

[Alrashid2 286]

4 minutes ago, Bar Nuthin said:

Ha, praying somebody weighs in!