Natural Gas Leak

[oliver2-44 9,848]

My Moms house has been empty since she pasted in August. We noticed a faint smell but initially wrote it off as empty closed up house or something. My mom built this new house 30 years ago so she wouldn’t be retired in the 70 year old house that constantly needed repair. About 6 weeks ago it seemed a little stronger and had the gas odor.  It was especially strongest in a closet at the outside wall where the gas meter was on the other side and the piping went up that wall to the attic. 
 

I contacted the gas company and they came right out with their leak detector. He found several small leaks on the piping threads and valve stem outside at the meter. He also poked holes in the ground following the piping to the street. This all checked good. This house sits on a black clay gumbo hill. So it made since the outside piping got torqued with the swelling and shrinking clay.  He checked in the house and did a pressure test and said all good. So we relit the pilot lights. 
 

I stay at the house when I come to the farm and go hunting and visit the tractors I have stored there.  Just to clarify, the house is in town and the farm is a couple of miles out of town.
We had Thanksgiving dinner with all the family there and all was good. Then the Monday after Thanksgiving I came down to go hunting and smelled gas again. So I called the gas company again and lost a hunting day waiting for them to check it out. This time all was good outside but he detected gas where the piping goes through the wall into the house and inside in that closet. He put a gage on house piping and it showed a small slow leak at 12 psi. So he pulled the meter and said I needed a plumber since it was on the house side. Plumbers were backed up 2 weeks for non emergency work. I opened all the doors & windows and ventilated house out good. So I had no heat or hot water at house while hunting. Ruffed it with a small portable electric heater for the bedroom, microwave food and a cold shower. Hunting was really like deer camp again. Since the house is in the city I cannot work on the house gas piping. 
 

I met the plumber this morning. They put a gage on it, 12psi and soaped all the fitting they could get to. The fitting at the dryer gas valve has a tiny bit of bubble so they replaced that. Still had a slow leak. So we went back to the pipe that enters the brick wall at the meter. I chipped out the mortar around the pipe

 

 They tried to unscrew the nipple but It just twisted. So we had to cut a hole through the closet sheetrock to get at it from the inside. 

Its interesting the pipe was good through the brick but heavily rusted in the air space between the back side of brick and foil wall board on house framing.  I think we caused the big hole you see in pipe picture when we removed it. It was black pipe so they replaced it with a galvanized nipple. I asked if we should wrap or coat the pipe but they said no. Amazingly we just got the City Inspector over on a Friday afternoon and he signed off on the repair. Now I have to wait till Monday or Tuesday to get the gas company out to reinstall the meter.  One ten inch pipe nipple, two plumbers for half a day and the lady at the office coordinating the City Permit and inspection. $912.00
We really missed what could have been a very bad situation.
 

 Last year at about this same time the Catholic Church in a rural community outside of town exploded and burned completely down. They had a similar situation where gas was smelled one evening when they were practicing Christmas songs, but the gas company found no leak and pressure tested ok. A few days later a lady entered the church to prepare for morning mass. When she lit a candle the church exploded. Sadly she died a few days later. Because there was a death the State Fire Marshall and Gas Company did a lengthly investigation. But with the building burned so intensely they could not pinpoint the cause of the gas leak. 

3pm I’m sitting in my deer stand writing this and it’s a little on the breezy side for a good evening hunt. Maybe the wind will calm down right before dark and the deer will move like they sometime do. 

[ebinmaine 68,252]

Good catch there mister....  

[8ntruck 7,080]

Yup.  Good catch.

[JCM 9,350]

When the meter was pulled ALL of the appliances should have been disconnected and air tested with more than 12 lbs from the entrance line outside. Then you would have easily found the entrance pipe the culprit. When passing through a concrete, brick, fieldstone, whatever a sleeve should have been put in place then sealed around the annular space to keep out the elements. Very lucky on this one.      Natural or LP gas is some serious stuff.  

[953 nut 55,743]

1 hour ago, oliver2-44 said:

We really missed what could have been a very bad situation.

You dodged a bigtime bullet there, seems like you hear about house explosions every week or so due to gas leaks.

While I was volunteering with Habitat for Humanities we did a lot of repairs on houses that were in poor repair and the owners couldn't afford to hire anyone. On a couple these houses the owner or a friend had run soft copper LP gas lines laying in the dirt or kinked. We wouldn't work on the house until the gas supplier had corrected the problem. If the house had blown up and my eyes were the last eyes to see that gas line problem I couldn't live with that guilt.

[Brockport Bill 1,714]

1 hour ago, oliver2-44 said:

My Moms house has been empty since she pasted in August. We noticed a faint smell but initially wrote it off as empty closed up house or something. My mom built this new house 30 years ago so she wouldn’t be retired in the 70 year old house that constantly needed repair. About 6 weeks ago it seemed a little stronger and had the gas odor.  It was especially strongest in a closet at the outside wall where the gas meter was on the other side and the piping went up that wall to the attic. 
 

I contacted the gas company and they came right out with their leak detector. He found several small leaks on the piping threads and valve stem outside at the meter. He also poked holes in the ground following the piping to the street. This all checked good. This house sits on a black clay gumbo hill. So it made since the outside piping got torqued with the swelling and shrinking clay.  He checked in the house and did a pressure test and said all good. So we relit the pilot lights. 
 

I stay at the house when I come to the farm and go hunting and visit the tractors I have stored there.  Just to clarify, the house is in town and the farm is a couple of miles out of town.
We had Thanksgiving dinner with all the family there and all was good. Then the Monday after Thanksgiving I came down to go hunting and smelled gas again. So I called the gas company again and lost a hunting day waiting for them to check it out. This time all was good outside but he detected gas where the piping goes through the wall into the house and inside in that closet. He put a gage on house piping and it showed a small slow leak at 12 psi. So he pulled the meter and said I needed a plumber since it was on the house side. Plumbers were backed up 2 weeks for non emergency work. I opened all the doors & windows and ventilated house out good. So I had no heat or hot water at house while hunting. Ruffed it with a small portable electric heater for the bedroom, microwave food and a cold shower. Hunting was really like deer camp again. Since the house is in the city I cannot work on the house gas piping. 
 

I met the plumber this morning. They put a gage on it, 12psi and soaped all the fitting they could get to. The fitting at the dryer gas valve has a tiny bit of bubble so they replaced that. Still had a slow leak. So we went back to the pipe that enters the brick wall at the meter. I chipped out the mortar around the pipe

 

 They tried to unscrew the nipple but It just twisted. So we had to cut a hole through the closet sheetrock to get at it from the inside. 

Its interesting the pipe was good through the brick but heavily rusted in the air space between the back side of brick and foil wall board on house framing.  I think we caused the big hole you see in pipe picture when we removed it. It was black pipe so they replaced it with a galvanized nipple. I asked if we should wrap or coat the pipe but they said no. Amazingly we just got the City Inspector over on a Friday afternoon and he signed off on the repair. Now I have to wait till Monday or Tuesday to get the gas company out to reinstall the meter.  One ten inch pipe nipple, two plumbers for half a day and the lady at the office coordinating the City Permit and inspection. $912.00
We really missed what could have been a very bad situation.
 

 Last year at about this same time the Catholic Church in a rural community outside of town exploded and burned completely down. They had a similar situation where gas was smelled one evening when they were practicing Christmas songs, but the gas company found no leak and pressure tested ok. A few days later a lady entered the church to prepare for morning mass. When she lit a candle the church exploded. Sadly she died a few days later. Because there was a death the State Fire Marshall and Gas Company did a lengthly investigation. But with the building burned so intensely they could not pinpoint the cause of the gas leak. 

3pm I’m sitting in my deer stand writing this and it’s a little on the breezy side for a good evening hunt. Maybe the wind will calm down right before dark and the deer will move like they sometime do. 

so the "gas company found NO leak and then church exploded and the lady died" -- -Sounds like some sad family will win a huge lawsuit settlement

[lynnmor 7,352]

Just learned today that my new refrigerator will have isobutane instead of R134a refrigerant.  Just what we all need, a highly flammable gas that is heavier than air spreading over the kitchen floor looking for a pilot light.

[WHX?? 49,145]

This problem has been know to happen for many many years. What happens in our climes is frost & moisture can accumulate on the pipe from cold to warm. Masonry pass thrus were the worst. I had thought this problem was mostly northern temps. Obviously not but somewhat rarer in southern climes. It's so common it's the very first thing a seasoned HVAC guy looks for on a gas smell call. 

 

 Gas companies used to provide us contractors with a epoxy coated pipe called a house pipe and was supposed to be used when it goes thru a wall . We never used them as they were a set length and couldn't be cut down and rethreaded. A special pvc tape is allowed labeled for such use and the  gas provider can shut you down if there is not evidence of having used it. New or old work, new or old installations no exceptions. 

 

 

Sorry to hear about you getting robbed but your own fault for calling a plumber instead of an HVAC guy. Most plungers don't know diddily squat about gas piping. No offence Plunge I said most. Galvanized piping is a no no in any gas piping. Black iron only for what we call hard piping. Galvanizing can turn to oxide powders in the presence of methyl mercaptan ... google it... and foul gas valves. HVAC contractors do all gas piping here except where called out on a commercial job speced by a engineer  who just didn't know any better. 

 

NFPA 54 ... google it ... is the national bible for all things pertaining to gas piping and a copy was always behind my desk. Only thing that can supersede it is a more stringent local code or God. Odds are pretty good that wrapping the house pipe is in it.

 

I would not pay the outfit unless he came back and wrapped it. I would then quiz the inspector what NFPA 54 is. 

 

10 lbs for 30 minutes was the norm around here Plunge. The installer had to sign an affidavit saying this was done before they would hang a meter.  I crs but i think the procedure is outlined in NFPA 54.

Edited December 14 by WHX??

[oliver2-44 9,848]

@WHX??  Thanks for the comments. Around here HVAC guys only touch AC copper, certainly nothing with threads. Plumbers run hard black steel pipe and even copper used on outside Butane/propane tanks.  As you mention I’m familiar with only running black pipe for gas, just did it this spring on my son’s remodel. When I questioned the plumber about wrapping pipe he said it was better to run a short length of galvanized through the brick wall. Said rust forms under the wrapping. I’m also familiar with the yellow tape you mention as we used it on gas piping in industrial/power plant work. I’ve never seen it used on housing around here. I’ll see if I can access a free NFPA book online.  City inspector already signed it off, but I wouldn’t expect much from the small town city inspector here. Maybe I’ll  question the gas guy after he,s reinstalled the meter and is walking back to his truck to leave. 

[oliver2-44 9,848]

4 hours ago, Brockport Bill said:

so the "gas company found NO leak and then church exploded and the lady died" -- -Sounds like some sad family will win a huge lawsuit settlement

Yes lawsuit underway. But it’s actually even more complicated. A contractor had just replaced the original 1920,s 6” high pressure distribution line that goes through the rural area town to town. This distribution line actually runs through our farm a few miles away. This church ties straight to that distribution line with a meter.  So that pipe line contractor and the distribution company are also getting sued. There is some speculation the construction could have introduced some trash into the church equipment and caused a valve or something to leak.
 

Brick church was build mid 1960,s. It could have had a leak at the pass thru pipe just like Moms house just had. 

[Pullstart 63,081]

Glad nobody was hurt Jim!  Hope hunting was a bit more relaxing!

[squonk 41,309]

Chemicals in cement and concrete can be corrosive. I had to find a leak in refrigerant piping on a fairly new walk in freezer. Leak appeared where the lines went through the block wall on the backside of the freezer. I cut out the section about a foot and a half in length and there were a zillion pinholes in the copper pipe.

[Ed Kennell 38,624]

 

Wow, that is scary.   Sure glad you found it and avoided the disaster that we hear about nearly every day.    With todays technology, smart meters and gas sniffers, seems it should be SOP to have auto shut downs.           I never used gas inside the home and hope I never need to.

 

[WHX?? 49,145]

10 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

’ll see if I can access a free NFPA book online.

You can't .. I tried back in the day cause I am a cheapskate ...  Finally had to break down and order one but the company paid for it. What's worse is is they are updated and old copies quickly outdate. Same as the NEC ...National Electrical Code ... and they ain't exactly giving them away these days either. 

 

10 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

Plumbers run hard black steel pipe

In reality Ollie that's the way it is supposed to be. but overworked and under loved plungers sluffed it off on us HVAC guys because we had the tools & know how. We did it every day.and kept up on the latest technology. When I retired thread less press equipment was all the rage and most plungers had their hands full. Plus a substantial investment in tools was involved.  Plus can't find good help ya know. ...

 

An easy gas line to say a gas stove was about 400 in my day. A plunger was triple that IF you could find one not busy enough to do it. Basic economics ... plumbers since they are highly licensed ... right @JCM ??? ... couldn't make any money tying up a journeyman  for half a day running a lousy gas line to a cook stove when they could be making their rate on plumbing work. A HVAC apprentice could (safely) run that gas line much cheaper. 

 

Around here an apprentice plumber couldn't wipe his butt unless accompanied by a journeyman. 

[Handy Don 12,442]

2 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Around here an apprentice plumber couldn't wipe his butt unless accompanied by a journeyman. 

I GC’d the construction of the home I still live in. The only trade that gave me heartache was the plumber.

The experience taught me that the most dangerous person on our job site was the plumber with a Sawzall! He wanted to run a straight line instead of the dogleg that was in the plans so he decided on his own to cut big holes in four 14’ floor joists. “No worries” says he, "plenty strong enough." “Sister them all” said the architect and the building inspector. 😡

Edited December 14 by Handy Don

[Wayne0 508]

39 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I GC’d the construction of the home I still live in. The only trade that gave me heartache was the plumber.

The experience taught me that the most dangerous person on our job site was the plumber with a Sawzall! He wanted to run a straight line instead of the dogleg that was in the plans so he decided on his own to cut big holes in four 14’ floor joists. “No worries” says he, "plenty strong enough." “Sister them all” say the architect and the building inspector. 😡

Biggest enemy is the Sawzall HoleHog!

[squonk 41,309]

School district bought this old historic house to make administrative offices out of it. Along with it was an attached carriage house that the school superintendent was going to use as his office on the 2nd floor with his secretary (gate keeper) on the first floor. Next to his office was a big room converted into a conf. room. Our job was to install a 3 head inverter heat pump in these 3 rooms. In the conf. room where the head had to go I had to drill an access hole for the line set and electric. There wasn't much room for it and our tool of choice was a SPYDER Carbide hole saw. I started drillng / sawing away and WHAMMO! I hit something in the wall. Turned out the old gas piping for the gas lights was still there. That hole saw tore right thru that pipe! 

[8ntruck 7,080]

. I was helping a friend finish the interior of his garage.  One of the items was piping for a gas heater.  I did not have a hand in the pipe installation, but I was involved in installing drywall over it.

 

Later on, while my friend was installing some shelving, he had to drill the drywall for anchors.  One of the holes he happened to hit the gas pipe dead center and drill right through it.  Fortunately, the gas had not been turned on to that bit of piping.

 

The odd thing here was how easily he drilled the pipe.  Normally, drilling a pipe is difficult, with the drill wanting to walk off of the pipe.

[Gravely Horse 17]

Gotta love spyder products. 

Edited December 14 by Gravely Horse

[Maxwell-8 4,289]

On 12/14/2024 at 1:42 AM, lynnmor said:

Just learned today that my new refrigerator will have isobutane instead of R134a refrigerant.  Just what we all need, a highly flammable gas that is heavier than air spreading over the kitchen floor looking for a pilot light.

European law forbids any other types of refrigerants in household refrigerators and aircon's. 

 

Some refrigerant when leaked into the air will have equivalent  emissions as 11000 times the same weight in co²

1lbs R11= 11000lbs co²

1lbs R134a = 1430lbs co²

Butane or propane is 3lbs of co²

 

[adsm08 2,173]

17 hours ago, 8ntruck said:

. I was helping a friend finish the interior of his garage.  One of the items was piping for a gas heater.  I did not have a hand in the pipe installation, but I was involved in installing drywall over it.

 

Later on, while my friend was installing some shelving, he had to drill the drywall for anchors.  One of the holes he happened to hit the gas pipe dead center and drill right through it.  Fortunately, the gas had not been turned on to that bit of piping.

 

The odd thing here was how easily he drilled the pipe.  Normally, drilling a pipe is difficult, with the drill wanting to walk off of the pipe.

 The drywall acted as a guide and held the bit on center.

[Ed Kennell 38,624]

Had breakfast with son Mike this morning. .

 

Mikes procedure for installing natural and propane gas lines thru any outside wall. 

    A PVC sleeve is installed and the OD is  sealed to the  inside and outside wall.

Then an uncoated black iron pipe that is long enough so the threads extend beyond the PVC sleeve. is installed inside the PVC.

The outside end of the PVC is sealed to the iron pipe.

The inside end is left open so the heat and air can enter the PVC sleeve.