1968 Raider 12 Wiring Issues

[BdubRADR12 8]

First ill make note this is my first post here on Red Square. 

 

Last week I bought a 1968 Wheel Horse Raider 12, with a Kohler k301(S). The previous owner did some wiring of his own to use a push button. He passed before I got it, so I don't know why it does run, and very little about it as a whole. I got a new battery and changed the oil, it turns over but doesn't have spark. My main questions are: how to determine what kind of ignition I have, what wiring diagram I need to look at to get it back to factory ignition switch and wiring, and why it cranks slowish, and then lugs down at the same spot every rotation or two. 

 

I did buy new points and a condenser for cheap on amazon, expecting they might be bad. Electrical is not my strong suit, especially when I'm not confident in the diagram, or parts already on the tractor. I'm really just looking for a spark, I should also be getting a new spark plug here in the next few days. any help or information is appreciated. apologies if this is a duplicate post as someone else's or in the wrong forum. 

 

[953 nut 56,091]

9 hours ago, BdubRADR12 said:

Last week I bought a 1968 Wheel Horse Raider 12, with a Kohler k301(S). The previous owner did some wiring of his own to use a push button. He passed before I got it, so I don't know why it does run, and very little about it as a whole. I got a new battery and changed the oil, it turns over but doesn't have spark. My main questions are: how to determine what kind of ignition I have, what wiring diagram I need to look at to get it back to factory ignition switch and wiring, and why it cranks slowish, and then lugs down at the same spot every rotation or two. 

 

I did buy new points and a condenser for cheap on amazon, expecting they might be bad. Electrical is not my strong suit, especially when I'm not confident in the diagram, or parts already on the tractor. I'm really just looking for a spark, I should also be getting a new spark plug here in the next few days. any help or information is appreciated. apologies if this is a duplicate post as someone else's or in the wrong forum.

Got to agree, that wiring is a mess!       The factory original ignition switch (# 111215) is a five terminal switch with a solenoid used on later models, earlier models used the (# 101428) three terminal switch, being over fifty years old is not readily available and would cost $ 50 or more IF you could find a good used one. Also, the voltage regulator shown is not correct and will probably fail if it hasn't done so already. The ignition system is magneto powered, a set of points and condenser is a good starting point (no pun intended) toward getting the engine running. DO NOT let the wires going to your magneto come in contact with battery voltage.

The slow cranking speed and stopping while rotating is probably old battery cables that need replacement. Are the battery cables going to a solenoid which is activated by the push button or is the button a heavy duty unit that has battery cables to and from it? The starter motor could also need attention.

The owner's manual below is for your Wheel Horse and contains wiring diagrams.

If it were mine I would begin by removing all of the wiring and replacing the ignition switch, voltage regulator and adding a solenoid per the drawing below using a 103991 ignition switch and new battery cables.

 

 

[oliver2-44 9,907]

953Nut has you covered on the wiring. As he mentioned if you tractors kohler engine has the original electrical it is a magneto ignition.  The front upper part of the engine with have a somewhat rounded triangular  coil on it.  If it has a more conventional single round coil your ignition has been modified. The triangular magneto coils are no longer available or expensive NOS one are sometime available.  This may be why the wiring was modified. Show us a picture of you coil to help us make sure we have you on the right track.

 

PS one thing you might try before starting over on the wiring (which I still strongly recommend) is to clean the existing points. These points develop a layer of oxide just from sitting.  with the points closed, take a dollar bill and pull it through the points several times.

 

Regarding your starter turning over slowly, good cables and a good engine ground are essential.  With that said, these starters do wear and are fairly simple to service. The front middle brash bushing (behind the starter gear) tend to wear and can cause a starter to runs slow or uneven.  Also a good disassembly and cleaning is usually overdue.  The Kohler manual has a good section on these starters and an easy to make little metal guide to help hold the spring loaded brushes for reassembly.  If needed, you may be able to find a brass bushing in those Hillman drawers at your local hardware store.  DBElectric sells a kit with bushings and new brushes if needed. https://www.ebay.com/itm/166664646445?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-166974-028196-7&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=166664646445&targetid=2234926908446&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9028258&poi=&campaignid=20263761986&mkgroupid=165292210513&rlsatarget=pla-2234926908446&abcId=9314103&merchantid=101500687&geoid=9028258&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAjeW6BhBAEiwAdKltMjkD9Dw3O6U6ET4-B2AL6Q5oxUBirHkkL_rWVoj5kikHV7qw4dEJ2hoCXLAQAvD_BwE

 

The thread below has lots of good starter info.

 

Edited December 11, 2024 by oliver2-44

[Achto 27,876]

[oldlineman 1,485]

In the first picture I think I see a round coil, just above the starter, would not that make it a points and coil ignition? 

[953 nut 56,091]

1 hour ago, oliver2-44 said:

if you tractors kohler engine has the original electrical it is a magneto ignition.

 

28 minutes ago, oldlineman said:

I think I see a round coil, just above the starter, would not that make it a points and coil ignition?

 

12 hours ago, BdubRADR12 said:

My main questions are: how to determine what kind of ignition I have

          If @BdubRADR12 can give us the SPEC Number from the engine ID Plate we will know for sure.

[pfrederi 17,959]

I also see what looks like round coil also there is an engine label where the Breakerless coil would have been so it is Battery point ignition.  Also see a magnum type regulator under the Raider 12 decal.  That won't last with out adequate cooling.

 

Edit;  Also Magneto plug wires come out the front of the air shroud.  This may have bee a conversion???

Edited December 11, 2024 by pfrederi

[pfrederi 17,959]

If the engine is original should be Spec#4712  that showed coil and condenser... but who knows what has been done...

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,121]

Tractor serial 457985 is late production.

When a change as large as the engine and wiring used happened the tractor model number changed but not this time.

 

Late production using Kohler K301S-47147b with Bendix starter, 10 amp alternator and magneto ignition with points and condenser.
(Early production used Kohler K301S-4712b with starter/generator and battery ignition)

[BdubRADR12 8]

10 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Got to agree, that wiring is a mess!       The factory original ignition switch (# 111215) is a five terminal switch with a solenoid used on later models, earlier models used the (# 101428) three terminal switch, being over fifty years old is not readily available and would cost $ 50 or more IF you could find a good used one. Also, the voltage regulator shown is not correct and will probably fail if it hasn't done so already. The ignition system is magneto powered, a set of points and condenser is a good starting point (no pun intended) toward getting the engine running. DO NOT let the wires going to your magneto come in contact with battery voltage.

The slow cranking speed and stopping while rotating is probably old battery cables that need replacement. Are the battery cables going to a solenoid which is activated by the push button or is the button a heavy duty unit that has battery cables to and from it? The starter motor could also need attention.

 

 

It has a ignition with 3 tabs, the positive battery cable goes to the ignition, and then i believe it then also connects to the pushbutton. Im most likely going to buy a new positive and negative battery cable from autozone aswell. thank you for the information.

[BdubRADR12 8]

9 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

953Nut has you covered on the wiring. As he mentioned if you tractors kohler engine has the original electrical it is a magneto ignition.  The front upper part of the engine with have a somewhat rounded triangular  coil on it.  If it has a more conventional single round coil your ignition has been modified. The triangular magneto coils are no longer available or expensive NOS one are sometime available.  This may be why the wiring was modified. Show us a picture of you coil to help us make sure we have you on the right track.

 

PS one thing you might try before starting over on the wiring (which I still strongly recommend) is to clean the existing points. These points develop a layer of oxide just from sitting.  with the points closed, take a dollar bill and pull it through the points several times.

 

Regarding your starter turning over slowly, good cables and a good engine ground are essential.  With that said, these starters do wear and are fairly simple to service. The front middle brash bushing (behind the starter gear) tend to wear and can cause a starter to runs slow or uneven.  Also a good disassembly and cleaning is usually overdue.  The Kohler manual has a good section on these starters and an easy to make little metal guide to help hold the spring loaded brushes for reassembly.  If needed, you may be able to find a brass bushing in those Hillman drawers at your local hardware store.  DBElectric sells a kit with bushings and new brushes if needed. https://www.ebay.com/itm/166664646445?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-166974-028196-7&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=166664646445&targetid=2234926908446&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9028258&poi=&campaignid=20263761986&mkgroupid=165292210513&rlsatarget=pla-2234926908446&abcId=9314103&merchantid=101500687&geoid=9028258&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAjeW6BhBAEiwAdKltMjkD9Dw3O6U6ET4-B2AL6Q5oxUBirHkkL_rWVoj5kikHV7qw4dEJ2hoCXLAQAvD_BwE

 

The thread below has lots of good starter info.

 

Ok, I do have a circular coil mounted towards the back of the motor. And yes, I will try replacing the main cables, if that doesn't work I may tear into the starter. Thank you for the information on the starter.

[BdubRADR12 8]

8 hours ago, 953 nut said:

 

 

          If @BdubRADR12 can give us the SPEC Number from the engine ID Plate we will know for sure.

Here is the sticker.

[BdubRADR12 8]

I am also wondering about these two wires, they weren't hooked up to anything in the picture you see here. or anything around the dash/battery, just a loose end.

[953 nut 56,091]

48 minutes ago, BdubRADR12 said:

I do have a circular coil mounted towards the back of the motor.

Perhaps this has been converted to a battery ignition system which is no problem but will require different wiring and ignition switch than the Magneto system. Please post a picture of the coil mounted to the engine.

[BdubRADR12 8]

18 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Perhaps this has been converted to a battery ignition system which is no problem but will require different wiring and ignition switch than the Magneto system. Please post a picture of the coil mounted to the engine.

here you go.

[oliver2-44 9,907]

That definitely looks like a battery ignition coil. 
This is what a magneto ignition coil would look like. 

[953 nut 56,091]

Yes, your ignition has been converted to Battery Ignition which in my opinion is an improvement. The condenser used for a battery system is Kohler #  230722. 

Disregard all of the wiring diagrams we have previously posted. The drawing below with a 103990 ignition switch will do the job.

 

[BdubRADR12 8]

Nevermind, posted at the same time. does it need to be a 3 tab ignition or 5? also what should i look for when replacing battery cables?

Edited December 12, 2024 by BdubRADR12

[oliver2-44 9,907]

1 hour ago, BdubRADR12 said:

I will try replacing the main cables, if that doesn't work I may tear into the starter. Thank you for the information on the starter.

Take some good jumper cable and go from your vehicle straight to the starter.  This will eliminate everything else and tell your how starter is working. 

[BdubRADR12 8]

52 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

Take some good jumper cable and go from your vehicle straight to the starter.  This will eliminate everything else and tell your how starter is working. 

Ok I’ll try that, but right now my wiring is in disarray haha

[kpinnc 12,743]

16 hours ago, 953 nut said:

If it were mine I would begin by removing all of the wiring and replacing the ignition switch, voltage regulator and adding a solenoid per the drawing below using a 103991 ignition switch and new battery cables.

 

I agree 100 percent. This machine’s electrical is simple enough to start over from scratch and KNOW you have good wiring. 

[BdubRADR12 8]

19 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

I agree 100 percent. This machine’s electrical is simple enough to start over from scratch and KNOW you have good wiring. 

I will probably try that. do you have any information i can start with about what gauge wire and stuff? I also don't have a fuse or solenoid.

[kpinnc 12,743]

You can buy a fuse holder at Tractor Supply or any automotive store. Even Walmart. 
 

I would think 14 gauge wire is plenty big enough for the wiring. New battery cables can be purchased wherever you find a fuse holder. 
 

You can also find a good wiring schematic for your machine in the manuals section. 

[953 nut 56,091]

12 hours ago, BdubRADR12 said:

Nevermind, posted at the same time. does it need to be a 3 tab ignition or 5? also what should i look for when replacing battery cables?

You will want to buy a five terminal ignition switch # 103-990, these are available at a variety o places for $ 20.00 or less.

Many of us use a Ford starter solenoid in place of the standard lawnmower solenoid, they are much better and cost the same or less.

The Kohler part number 41 403 06 voltage regulator is the one you should use, The new number for this is 25 403 22 and  is a good source.

Most good auto parts stores will have a selection of battery cables in various lengths, a #6 AWG will be good. 

[pfrederi 17,959]

13 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

That definitely looks like a battery ignition coil. 
This is what a magneto ignition coil would look like. 

 

 

That is a Breakerless system coil...