Electrician's Help Wanted

[adsm08 2,320]

This morning I was in the kitchen when all the lights started to flicker and an arcing sound came from down stairs near the main panel. Seriously sounded like someone was welding something. The wife says this is the 3rd or 4th time something like this has happened, but this was the worst.

 

Of course by the time I got to the panel it had all stopped. There was a faint electrical burning smell, but no tripped breakers. I pulled the cover off the panel, and checked all the accessible wiring and I can't find any burn marks or any one spot where the smell is stronger than another. The only thing I can see where something looks "not like the others" is this one breaker:

 

 

None of the others have that sandy material on them. I poked at it a bit with a screw driver and it feels like it may be ceramic.

 

This breaker also does not seem to sit in the box quite right because the cover gets caught on it when I try to put it back on. This one also feeds the garage, which means the wires run under the yard out to the garage wall, so there is lots of potential for critter damage on this circuit.

 

 

Anyone have any insights into any of it?

[Racinbob 11,393]

In over 5 decades as an electrician likely the most important thing I learned is not to troubleshoot from afar. Probably the second thing is that there's far too many kinda, sorta wannabe electricians willing to give their 'expert' opinion. Just check out the Facebook 'master electricians' for some good laughs. DON"T GO THAT ROUTE. Get a qualified electrician to look at it and do whatever it takes to make it right. While this looks pretty cut and dry there very well could be more than what's obvious. Ya screw up plumbing you can dump water all over. Ya screw up electrical and you can burn houses and kill people. 

Edited November 28, 2024 by Racinbob

[adsm08 2,320]

4 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

In over 5 decades as an electrician likely the most important thing is not to troubleshoot from afar. Probably the second thing is that there's far too many kinda, sorta wannabe electricians willing to give their 'expert' opinion. Just check out the Facebook 'master electricians' for some good laughs. DON"T GO THAT ROUTE. Get a qualified electrician to look at it and do whatever it takes to make it right. While this looks pretty cut and dry there very well could be more than what's obvious. Ya screw up plumbing you can dump water all over. Ya screw up electrical and you can burn houses and kill people. 

 

I agree with all of that. I know several qualified electricians and I'll be getting in touch with them later.

 

At the moment I'm mostly interested in knowledge about the sandy/ceramic-like material in the breaker because I've never seen that before.

 

I plan to replace that one either way just because it doesn't seem to fit right.

[Racinbob 11,393]

I'll say this much. The breaker looks to be a different brand than the panel. Again, a qualified electrician can verify. 

[rmaynard 15,774]

What does that breaker feed? It looks pretty hefty. Maybe electric range, water heater, dryer? If it is something that is not crucial, turn the breaker off until qualified help is secured.

 

I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN. However, certain things are just common sense, and that is why homeowners are allowed access to the breakers.

[c-series don 9,209]

As a volunteer firefighter for over 36 years I have seen electrical issues start many fires. Personally I would not wait to get a LICENSED ELECTRICIAN. As you said before, you know several so call them! DON’T WAIT. Whatever you have to do extra for them because they are coming over on the holiday, it’s worth it. Please for the safety of you, your family and your home address this situation immediately. 

[adsm08 2,320]

34 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

What does that breaker feed? It looks pretty hefty. Maybe electric range, water heater, dryer? If it is something that is not crucial, turn the breaker off until qualified help is secured.

 

I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN. However, certain things are just common sense, and that is why homeowners are allowed access to the breakers.

 

It feeds the garage. Previous owner of the house was an electrician and the garage was his workshop, so he ran 100 amp service out there. It is off.

 

3 minutes ago, c-series don said:

As a volunteer firefighter for over 36 years I have seen electrical issues start many fires. Personally I would not wait to get a LICENSED ELECTRICIAN. As you said before, you know several so call them! DON’T WAIT. Whatever you have to do extra for them because they are coming over on the holiday, it’s worth it. Please for the safety of you, your family and your home address this situation immediately. 

 

My BIL was an HVAC/Electrical installer for years and is involved now. But of course we can't get a breaker until tomorrow.

[WHX?? 49,646]

Looks to me you have a bad connection to the breaker as evidenced by the blackened wire. 

If the breaker lug is not tight resistance will develop leading to heat. That leads to more resistance so a runaway train. The arcing is the connection trying to re-establish/maintain proper current flow. No what matter it's best to shut it down until proper repairs can be done. 

The whole load center should now be inspected including buss bars. ALL connections should be checked for tightness.  Breakers are NOT interchangeable. 

While I agree with a good sparky with a well stocked truck keep in mind ya can't find good help these days.  

[rmaynard 15,774]

In the meantime, process of elimination is all you can do. If shutting off the garage breakers result in no more noises, you've probably found the source but not the cause. If the noise continues, something else is the cause. However, looking at the wires and breaker in the picture, I have to agree with Jim that there is a problem there.

[lynnmor 7,447]

Since you were able to hear the problem from upstairs, I would look around for problems in addition to those two breakers.  Unless there was a heavy load in the garage there may be another fault.

[953 nut 56,475]

1 hour ago, adsm08 said:

The wife says this is the 3rd or 4th time something like this has happened,

         learning opportunity,   don't overlook an unusual event and hope it will go away. It won't get better on its own.

1 hour ago, adsm08 said:

I poked at it a bit with a screw driver and it feels like it may be ceramic.

Probably aluminum wire going to the shop and the white stuff is aluminum oxide,  your electrician can check to see if the breaker is rated for aluminum.

[adsm08 2,320]

22 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

         learning opportunity,   don't overlook an unusual event and hope it will go away. It won't get better on its own.

 

 

I haven't really been ignoring it. It is extremely intermittent and I can't typically diagnose a concern that isn't present at that time. This is the first time it's happened while I was home. I did a visual inspection of the box after the first one and found nothing obvious. I just looked a little closer today.

 

I'd love to be able to get there and see it while it's happening, because that will be far more conclusive in my mind.

 

22 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

 

Probably aluminum wire going to the shop and the white stuff is aluminum oxide,  your electrician can check to see if the breaker is rated for aluminum.

 

Label on the breaker says  CU-AL 75* C Wire, so I'm assuming it's rated for copper or aluminum.

Edited November 28, 2024 by adsm08

[Racinbob 11,393]

30 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Looks to me you have a bad connection to the breaker as evidenced by the blackened wire. 

If the breaker lug is not tight resistance will develop leading to heat. That leads to more resistance so a runaway train. The arcing is the connection trying to re-establish/maintain proper current flow. No what matter it's best to shut it down until proper repairs can be done. 

The whole load center should now be inspected including buss bars. ALL connections should be checked for tightness.  Breakers are NOT interchangeable. 

While I agree with a good sparky with a well stocked truck keep in mind ya can't find good help these days.  

 

Actually brands like Eaton, Siemens, GE will actually interchange. Even Homeline to some extent but Square D did put so buggers in there to minimize that. But interchanging then typically causes UL listing issues and, as in this case, panel cover issues. 

Tightening every connection is spot on advice. It kinda looks like the conductors could be aluminum which could add to the connction problem. If they are aluminum even though the breaker is al-cu rated an anti oxidation compound should be used.

He said the garage was turned off. Even a bad connection won't heat up without a load. Where is the load coming from?

Things that the electrician should address to make sure it's safe.

 

[adsm08 2,320]

1 minute ago, Racinbob said:

 

He said the garage was turned off. Even a bad connection won't heat up without a load. Where is the load coming from?

Things that the electrician should address to make sure it's safe.

 

 

The garage is currently shut off at the panel in the house. This was done after the garage breaker became the prime suspect. There is almost always something hot out there. The lights and outlets are usually hot, even if the lights are off, the compressor doesn't always get shut off correctly, and there are rodents out there that could be chewing on wires (although I have not seen any chewing of the wires out there).

[Racinbob 11,393]

2 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

 

The garage is currently shut off at the panel in the house. This was done after the garage breaker became the prime suspect. There is almost always something hot out there. The lights and outlets are usually hot, even if the lights are off, the compressor doesn't always get shut off correctly, and there are rodents out there that could be chewing on wires (although I have not seen any chewing of the wires out there).

But there would need to be current draw. Are the lights left on? Is something plugged into an outlet and running? Compressor running? Just because power it present doesn't mean there's current draw. 

 

Explain all this to your electrician and hopefully he'll get to the bottom of things. 

[adsm08 2,320]

23 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

But there would need to be current draw. Are the lights left on? Is something plugged into an outlet and running? Compressor running? Just because power it present doesn't mean there's current draw. 

 

Explain all this to your electrician and hopefully he'll get to the bottom of things. 

 

The lights should be off. I haven't been out there for a day or two, so I don't know that the compressor is off. If the breaker isn't killed when you are done it will run periodically. And it's a detached garage about 60 feet from the house, so I can't hear it from inside.

 

There are some things hooked up out there that have a small, but constant draw. The door openers are always on to some degrees, as well as the radio.

 

But I just went down and looked, out of curiosity, the suspicious breaker is a Siemens, everything else is Square-D.

Edited November 28, 2024 by adsm08

[squonk 41,774]

Best guess. Underground wire. If it is not in conduit, critter damage or rock poked a hole in the insulation and hot met ground. If it's in conduit, rock damage or conduit filled with water. Or critter in garage decided to eat some wires. Is there a sub panel in the garage? Unhook garage at connection in garage and remove breaker in the house and have the wire megged .if it checks ok, check shop for evidence of Fluffy looking for a warm home for the winter.

 

I'm with Richard on the white powder. Aluminum oxide with a little ozone thrown in from the arcing.

Edited November 28, 2024 by squonk

[clueless 3,027]

My man you have been given a lot of good advice here, but from what I see the licensed professional electrician here (Bob) is the guy you need to go with. At least twice he has said don't assume and don't try fix it get a LICENSED electrician to look at it, that is not sound advice that is life and death advice. As a safety officer as part of my job with the federal government for 35+ years I had to investigate and fill out many forms (the government) on any reported accident now matter how small. On the forms for you situation thing like "wife says this is the 3rd or 4th time something like this has happened", "doesn't seem to sit in the box quite right because the cover gets caught on it" and especially this one "I poked at it a bit with a screw driver"  are all red flags. There is a good possibility that if your house caught fire, or burned down or someone died and your homeowners insurance read my report on this they wouldn't pay out. I know this sounds a bit harsh but the death of someone is harsh. Don't be assuming things and for damn sure don't be poking screwdrivers in anything electrical.    

[WHX?? 49,646]

 

On 11/28/2024 at 8:45 AM, Racinbob said:

Actually brands like Eaton, Siemens, GE will actually interchange. 

Right on Bob. Square D type QO breakers should only be used in a QO box tho. 

[Racinbob 11,393]

1 hour ago, WHX?? said:

 

Right on Bob. Square D type QO breakers should only be used in a QO box tho. 

The Sq D Homeline will work in the others for the most part but the bus design intentionally prevents the others from plugging into all the spaces The QO's (and only one I use) will only work in QO panels.  

[adsm08 2,320]

Well it did it again this morning and tripped a breaker this time.

 

As far as I can tell the breaker only feeds the defunct 20A service to the garage since those wires are still present out there and nothing in the house has stopped working. These wires are also buried, so I probably Squonk's theory of critter or water damage is what is happening.

 

That breaker is now off as well, and I'm going to disconnect them tomorrow, after tracings and being sure they don't actually go to anything now.

[squonk 41,774]

How is it connected in the garage? Like I said, if you have a sub panel out there, you can disconnect the wires there and have an electrician megg the wires underground before you start digging them up. If they check ok he can start megging the wires in the garage and find Fluffy's buffet.

[adsm08 2,320]

1 hour ago, squonk said:

How is it connected in the garage? Like I said, if you have a sub panel out there, you can disconnect the wires there and have an electrician megg the wires underground before you start digging them up. If they check ok he can start megging the wires in the garage and find Fluffy's buffet.

 

At the moment the breaker that tripped, if it is still connected to the garage, is connected to the two capped wires in the corner. But degraded live wires shorting together could do this too.

 

I have 100A 240V service out there. The breaker that tripped is a single pole 20A labeled "Garage". But a 20A 110V is consistent with the other neighborhood garages I have been in, and I know there is a disconnected service out there.

Edited December 1, 2024 by adsm08

[squonk 41,774]

So if it just connected to those 2 capped wires it has to be damaged underground. Do you know what kind of insulating jacket the wires have on them as they leave the house?

[adsm08 2,320]

35 minutes ago, squonk said:

So if it just connected to those 2 capped wires it has to be damaged underground. Do you know what kind of insulating jacket the wires have on them as they leave the house?

 

I don't. I need to pull the cover again to start tracing them out of the many other wires coming out of there.

 

But the house was built in the 50s, so the original wiring to the garage is probably from around the same time.

 

I'm going to look into it closer tomorrow after I get to Lowes and get a new 100A.

Edited December 1, 2024 by adsm08