520H Front Hydraulic Idea

[WheelHorseVH 104]

Hey all. I know the topic of adding things has been discussed so I will get straight to the point as I believe this is a new idea. I would like someone who knows hydraulics to chime in please and tell me if this is stupid.
 

Assume a 520h with the column hydro lever. I install Matt’s hydro pedal and now no longer have use for that right hand column lever.

 

What if I got another 520h spool valve, another 520h lift cylinder, and all associated hydraulic lines. I install valve 2 in series after valve 1, going out to remotes in front of the tractor. To these remotes, I connect the lift cylinder 2. 

I install spool valve 2 so it is basically a mirror image of the stock WH lift lever on the left side of the steering. So now, I can repurpose the useless lever on the right to be “right” and “left”, similar to how the stock lever on the left of the steering is “up” and “down”. 
 

Aside from the fabrication to make the lever work, am I grossly oversimplifying the hydraulics? What parts would be needed to make this work? Anyone done it?

[kpinnc 12,065]

Find a dual spool valve from a D-series, and just plumb a second circuit wherever you want. 
 

 

[ebinmaine 67,531]

[wallfish 17,000]

Absolutely doable and it's basically that simple.

Are you wanting to swivel a plow blade L and R ? Not necessarily a new idea as it's been done and also done with a V plow to also open and close the halves of the blade. The pics and videos are gone from the links so the thread is worthless

Just search and read about hydraulics and learn the basics of how it works and design as there's lots of info available. Using quick connect ports can allow for easier connections / disconnections if you plan to use the tractor for other purposes

[peter lena 8,631]

@WheelHorseVH   https://www.google.com/search?q=hydraulic+fluid+heator+%2F+tractor&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS866US866&oq=hydraulic+fluid+heator+%2F+tractor&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAEyBwgGECEYnwUyBwgHECEYnwXSAQkyMTU3OWowajSoAgCwAgE&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8  that add on is basically simple @wallfish , response , simply add a fluid heater , and eliminate the cold weather  related issues . that and a battery tender , pete 

[Goldnboy 920]

Yep d series dual spools work very well!

[953 nut 55,260]

On page 5 of this thread the hydraulics topic has you covered. If you haven't been following this thread it is a great read from start to finish.

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

15 hours ago, WheelHorseVH said:

Anyone done it?

Not exactly what you describe but with similar results and learned a ton about hydraulics in the bargain.

End result:

- two quick-connect hydraulic circuits at the front, one with float

- joystick control via cables (from a Fisher)

- uses existing Eaton 1100 charge pump circuit (i.e. no additional pump, etc.)

- left existing lift cylinder, rock shaft, and control intact so all regular implements can work as they should

 

Key things to know:

- ALL WHs using Eaton 1100s need external pressure relief for the charge pump circuit -- all that I’ve seen have it built into the control valves

- The max working pressure is ~700 psi. This is good in that simple auto brake line tubing and JIC fittings are plenty adequate and safe. Not as good is that it limits working loads.

- The pump volume is ~1.5gpm at max pressure. Plenty for small cylinders but WAY too little for long or fat ones.

 

Here you can see the joystick attached to the left side of the hoodstand (yellow knob) and the control valve above the left front wheel. The black connecting push/pull cables are hard to see! The two-spool with float valve is off a (cough cough) JD425 and carefully painted black!

 

This is the lift mechanism I built for the front that hooks into the front- and mid-attach-a-matics. As you can see, it uses a standard 2” receiver at the top and a scavenged mid-hitch at the bottom latch to hold the implement (in the above picture, a flail mower).

 

We have worked this setup hard at my children’s camp and are extremely happy with it. Our only disappointment is that there is no easy way to make the WH have 4WD or a locking rear diff so we’ve gotten it stuck in mud a couple of times!

Edited October 26 by Handy Don

[WHX?? 48,821]

16 hours ago, WheelHorseVH said:

 install valve 2 in series after valve 1,

 

I think you would want to parallel the valves since the the lift valves don't have a power beyond port. 

I have some 520 stuff you can have you want to give it a whirl. 

[Handy Don 12,232]

On 10/26/2024 at 2:05 PM, WHX?? said:

 

I think you would want to parallel the valves since the the lift valves don't have a power beyond port. 

I have some 520 stuff you can have you want to give it a whirl. 

One cannot put WH valves used on Eaton 1100 tractors in parallel exactly because in the neutral position the lift control connects P to T (pump/pressure to tank). This config is known as a Tandem Center.

These valves can be sequential (ie T to P or Output to Input chained)l, but with both valves actuated, the pressure will be the same in both cylinders--that may or may not be a good thing operationally. Its also possible that if the first cylinder is retracting and the second is extending that the speeds will be different.

 

Power Beyond valves have separate N and T ports where all Ts must be direct plumbed to the tank/reservoir and the last N port in the chain of valves must also connect to the reservoir.

Also, these setups typically use a discrete pressure relief valve in the line between the pump and the first control valve.

 

PM me if more details needed 

[WHX?? 48,821]

5 hours ago, Handy Don said:

This config is known as a Tandem Center.

I always thought that was called an open center???

[oliver2-44 9,756]

On 10/26/2024 at 12:41 AM, kpinnc said:

Find a dual spool valve from a D-series, and just plumb a second circuit wherever you want. 
 

 

The nice thing about the D valves is one or both have the float feature. Another is you can stack as many of these valves side by side as you want

[kpinnc 12,065]

5 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

The nice thing about the D valves is one or both have the float feature. Another is you can stack as many of these valves side by side as you want

Not all of them, including the one in my picture. The “floating” valve is about an inch longer than the other, as it has an extra set of detents internally. I have one of those, and had been planning to swap them one day. 

[WheelHorseVH 104]

I appreciate all the replies. I understand that the D200 spool valve is a great option but if at all possible, a major objective here would be to keep the tractor looking as close to stock as possible. The only real exception that I would want to make is to have the front quick connect hydraulics poke out somewhere, possibly even sort of hidden behind a fold down panel. This is why I am asking about using that right lever and making the #2 spool valve and lift cylinder just a used 520H valve and cylinder so that all external relief, sizing, etc. does not need to be figured out.

 

@WHX?? thank you for the offer. Once I get a handle on this, I may take you up on that and then post the results.

 

@Handy Don thanks for the specifics about the Eaton 1100. A few questions for you...

 

1. Would using stock 520H valve and cylinder alleviate the need for another external relief? I am assuming that if 520H valve currently has it built in then it should be fine?

2. Is there anything that I should be aware of if trying to install the quick connect couplers at the front?

 

Anyone have pictures of a cylinder installed on a WH plow for angling? I would like to get dimensions if possible but would gladly take pictures if that is all. Thank you!

[WheelHorseVH 104]

Also, please verify the correctness of these diagrams. If anything is wrong or missing please let me know so I can fix. If this works out, it could help someone else in the future. Thank you.

 

First the stock 520H setup:

 

 

 

 

Next, the proposed setup:

 

 

 

Edited October 28 by WheelHorseVH

[Handy Don 12,232]

14 hours ago, WHX?? said:

I always thought that was called an open center???

They are very similar.

In neutral, open center valves open all ports (P, A, B, and T) to a common gallery

In neutral, tandem center valves open only the P to T connection.

Fluid flows from pump to tank in both, but in tandem, ports A & B being closed locks the cylinder maintaining extend or retract against the load on the cylinder (e.g. a lifted deck or plow)

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

2 hours ago, WheelHorseVH said:

1. Would using stock 520H valve and cylinder alleviate the need for another external relief? I am assuming that if 520H valve currently has it built in then it should be fine?

2. Is there anything that I should be aware of if trying to install the quick connect couplers at the front?

1. If each valve in the string has its own internal pressure relief, you will be ok. I used a dual-spool valve without internal relief so I had to add it externally.

• Note: I strongly advise not even removing the acorn nut covering the pressure adjuster screw on the WH valves unless you know for absolute certain that it needs adjustment and you have the skills and equipment necessary to adjust it correctly (gauges and plumbing). Messing this up can diminish the function of the system and/or damage the pump.

2. Nothing in particular to consider on using quick connect female connectors with internal closure. I used ¼” Pioneer style.

 

General comments:

- The extra cylinder, valve, and plumbing will contain fluid once charged. Be sure to check the oil in the transaxle (aka, the tank) after installation to be sure it’s kept at the proper level.

- There is very little room inside WH 500’s -- the engineers were ingenious. Rubber hydro hoses are bulky. I ended up using alloy brake tubing both for heat dissipation and space efficiency.

Edited October 28 by Handy Don

[Handy Don 12,232]

15 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

The nice thing about the D valves is one or both have the float feature. Another is you can stack as many of these valves side by side as you want

The control valves on many of the Sunstrand-equipped tractors can also be stacked. The pressure relief there being built into the hydro pump itself. Many makers used Sunstrands and took advantage of this feature.

[wallfish 17,000]

If you divide the T and P ports before the valve, the cylinders will work more responsively together if or when using both at the same time.

Just throwing that out there since we don't know the project it's going to be used for

[WheelHorseVH 104]

Are my diagrams correct? If so, @wallfishwould splitting before the valve work? I think the tandem valve setup @Handy Don is describing would not allow for that because the fluid would simply divert to the non-activated valve unless both valves were being operated simultaneously. 

[wallfish 17,000]

There are pros and cons to everything. Spool to spool valve plumbing is normal and will work.

A divider will ensure both valves have enough fluid volume to operate valves on both at the same time but the volume is split so the speed will be decreased 

When I made the back hoe a divider was definitely necessary because it would have run too slow and sacrificed some power too while using multiple valves at the same time.

Not necessary to use a divider when using them at the same time but it can depend upon the application. Angling a plow, I would just go spool to spool. It will still operate both at the same time but the second one in-line will be slower than the first one because of the fluid being used.

[Handy Don 12,232]

3 hours ago, wallfish said:

There are pros and cons to everything. Spool to spool valve plumbing is normal and will work. (As long as pressure relief is in place)

A divider will ensure both valves have enough fluid volume to CAN operate valves both at the same time but the volume is split so the speed will be decreased 

When I made the back hoe a divider was definitely necessary because it would have run too slow and sacrificed some power too while using multiple valves at the same time.

Not necessary to use a divider when using them at the same time but it can depend upon the application. Angling a plow, I would just go spool to spool. It will still operate both at the same time but the second one in-line will be slower than the first one because of the fluid being used.

A divider makes sense only where the pump can adequately supply acceptable volume at useful pressure to the cylinders that will operate simultaneously. The Eaton charge pump is relatively low volume and low pressure. @wallfish’s setup uses a pump with at least 3x the volume and 3x the pressure

Plus, a splitter (or diverter) is pricey, complicates your plumbing, and adds friction to the fluid flow. The simplest path is the one you diagrammed--two Eaton-compatible valves, each with internal pressure relief, in series.

 

Alternately, if you really must have simultaneous operation and must stay with a single spool, get the new valve with an N port (power beyond) and a separately plumbed T (tank) port and put that first as described here...

Pump --> New Valve P

New valve T --> filter input (reservoir)

New valve N --> existing valve P (input)

Existing valve T (output) --> filter input (reservoir)

(It is acceptable to join the two T outputs into a single line going to the filter/reservoir)

 

An advantage to most multi-spool control valves (but NOT all) is they internally have the N to P connections where needed.

 

[wallfish 17,000]

7 hours ago, Handy Don said:

A divider makes sense only where the pump can adequately supply acceptable volume at useful pressure to the cylinders that will operate simultaneously. The Eaton charge pump is relatively low volume and low pressure. @wallfish’s setup uses a pump with at least 3x the volume and 3x the pressure

I was just throwing that dividing thing out there depending on the application and usage. More for knowledge than anything else.

The cylinders he's using ( if the same as WH ) are also more than 3x smaller in volume and the pressure requirements for pushing and or pulling the cylinders probably require 3x less pressure or even less if just moving components compared to digging into the earth like my system was built for. Pressure won't change by dividing, just the volume does. It's all relative to the size of the parts being used and or the application. 

[Handy Don 12,232]

7 hours ago, wallfish said:

Pressure won't change by dividing, just the volume does

Absolutely correct. Pressure does come into play, though, when sizing the cylinder diameter and length to get the force needed for the implement.

Also correct that the “stock” WH cylinders with small diameter and short throw are appropriate for the volume and pressure of the Eaton charge pump as long at the application doesn’t require more than a few hundred pounds of force over a fairly short distance.

 

I’m using the rear cylinder from a C-195 for my front attachment lift. It has a 2.58” ID so around 3,500 lbs of force at the rod end but over a throw of only 3.5”.  Pushing on a lever to get 17.5” of throw reduces the max effective force to only 700 lbs. The stock, smaller, 1.5” ID mid-mount cylinder is good for about 1,200 lbs of force at the rod end.

[WheelHorseVH 104]

@Handy Don for the lines, standard brake line size will do? And for the fittings, what should I buy?

 

I can do single and double flares on brake line, will either of those be compatible with the fitting?

 

Thank you, your hydraulics posts are incredibly informative.