House generator information and experiences wanted

[ebinmaine 67,487]

First things first.

This will be done,

By a professional licensed electrician.

To properly legal code.

To the satisfaction of my insurance company.

 

The wiring will be a permanent part of the house but the generator will be a portable model.

 

The reason I'm posting this here is because I would like to know your experiences and input regarding whatever aspect of a whole house generator you are familiar with.

 

In particular we would like to know if there are certain brands that are far more reliable than the others, or not.

 

 

I would lean towards buying a new model versus trying to find a bargain on an older one that has been sitting in a bath of booze infested gasoline for several years.

 

Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Suggestions?

 

 

[drodg33 101]

I have a Generac that has been very reliable.  It is basically a whole house but it will not turn on my a/c as I needed some changed with my gas line at my house that I really didn't want to do.  So it operates my furnace, most lights, and outlets in my house etc.  I was more concerned about the winter electricity loss than the summer.  I would do it again and I love having it when I lose electricity.  

[TonyToro Jr. 1,415]

Honda generators are also good but a bit pricey

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,316]

  I have a Briggs & Stratton brand that’s about 13 years old that has treated me well. Tank is always full or close to it with E-free fuel. Electric and pull start.
  Mine feeds a 200amp whole house transfer switch so I have everything in a power outage. 

 

 

[Racinbob 11,079]

First, have you calculated how much power you'll need? Do you want to power your entire panel so you can run whatever you want within the limits of your generator? Do you want automatic changeover or is manual OK? A consideration often overlooked when buying a portable generator is the total harmonic distortion of the unit. Your sensitive equipment will thank you. Inverters will be clean enough as are some generators. Keep it <5%. 

That's a start but enough for now 

[Handy Don 12,217]

We use an old (~20 years?) portable Echo brushless generator. B&S Vanguard powered. Stored dry and fueled when needed. Has always started on first pull and has carried us through five or six outages up to six days long with a couple hours on then a couple hours off and not run through the night (too noisy).

 

I haven’t broken down to add a permanent connection and switch. I have a number of heavy extension cords that I bring to appliances, etc.

 

I’ve begun to look seriously at investing in solar panels and a large battery backup instead of a connection for the portable or the whole house natural gas model (favored by most of my neighbors!) Capital investment is higher, even with the government incentives, but there is more regular return on the investment and less concern about fuel availability.

[ebinmaine 67,487]

34 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

First, have you calculated how much power you'll need?

 

I have in the past but I can't recall right now. I want to say something like 10K or 12K was more than enough.

 

34 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

Do you want to power your entire panel so you can run whatever you want within the limits of your generator? 

 

No clothes dryer. Limited other 110 volt circuits. Fridge. Water well. Water heater. Otherwise, doesn't much matter.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

Do you want automatic changeover or is manual OK?

 

Manual is perfectly fine.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

A consideration often overlooked when buying a portable generator is the total harmonic distortion of the unit. Your sensitive equipment will thank you.

 

What type of equipment is sensitive to that? We would not have TV or Internet available while the power is out anyway.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

Inverters will be clean enough as are some generators. Keep it <5%. 

That's a start but enough for now 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

has carried us through five or six outages up to six days long with a couple hours on then a couple hours off and not run through the night (too noisy).

 

 

Ours would not be run through the night for the same reason.

 

Amount of outages up here though, is far far more. I don't know if I've ever gone a year without losing it. Usually 2 to 4 times annually.

 

 

 

[Handy Don 12,217]

One advantage for you is that both members of your household are capable of getting a portable unit running and switched in. I was always concerned while on multi-day business trips about an outage at home in my absence.

[peter lena 8,625]

@drodg33  having a generac  , would  figure it was set up to run the entire house , personally  would get a licenced  electrician  to verify your capabilities , probably has a lot of experience  with stand by power . that insite  should make quick work of your issue , pete 

[8ntruck 7,003]

My wife's parents had a set up installed quitesome time ago.  They were using g a portable manual start generator - which my brother in law now has.  There was an outlet (inlet?) Installed outside the house that back fed through a 2 pole 30 amp breaker.  No interlock to prevent back feeding into the power line to the house - had to throw the main breaker before connecting the generator.  This system probably is not up to current code.

 

Later, after my mother in law went onto an oxygen concentrator, they installed a Generac whole house, propane powered unit with an automatic transfer switch.  Runs the whole house, but the central air conditioner sure makes the V twin in it grunt when it turns on.  I'll typically turn the air off when the Generac is running.

 

The old generator connection point is now an outlet for my welder.

[ebinmaine 67,487]

23 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

One advantage for you is that both members of your household are capable of getting a portable unit running and switched in. I was always concerned while on multi-day business trips about an outage at home in my absence.

 

 

That brings up another valid point. If Trina's mom moved into the basement and she lost power while we knew we were going to be away for a few days.....

That would make electric start almost mandatory. 

[ri702bill 8,319]

Eric - my observations...

One guy I worked with was very adamant about getting a generator that ran on the SAME fuel as what he used to heat his house...(electricity was not a choice). He had city natural gas for his heat, that was what he used. Why??

Two reasons - City natural gas is an "endless, uninterrupted" supply - no need to store 3 days of gasoline. The BIG reason that has NOT been mentioned - Brownout as the generator runs out of fuel... NOT good. That can kill circuit boards on refrigerators, oil burners, and freezers..IF you go with a gasoline powered generator, you MUST be diligent to prevent this and to restart the generator without a load on it....

[ebinmaine 67,487]

54 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

Eric - my observations...

One guy I worked with was very adamant about getting a generator that ran on the SAME fuel as what he used to heat his house...(electricity was not a choice). He had city natural gas for his heat, that was what he used. Why??

Two reasons - City natural gas is an "endless, uninterrupted" supply - no need to store 3 days of gasoline. The BIG reason that has NOT been mentioned - Brownout as the generator runs out of fuel... NOT good. That can kill circuit boards on refrigerators, oil burners, and freezers..IF you go with a gasoline powered generator, you MUST be diligent to prevent this and to restart the generator without a load on it....

 

EDIT:

Valid point and good information but it will not be an option here. There is NO fuel supply to the house.

Edited September 18 by ebinmaine
ADDED INFORMATION TO POST BELOW

[Racinbob 11,079]

16 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

I have in the past but I can't recall right now. I want to say something like 10K or 12K was more than enough.

 

That sounds like plenty for your needs.

 

16 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

No clothes dryer. Limited ot 110 volt circuits. Fridge. Water well. Water heater. Otherwise, doesn't much matter.

 

Excellent. Who really needs to run a dryer in a power outage. We also don't run the A/C.

 

16 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Manual is perfectly fine.

 

Then you could do just fine with one of these instead of a typical transfer switch. UL listed and code compliant. I plug the generator into a gen input box like Sparkys and it back feeds the top right 2-pole switch. The lockout device allows only one breaker to be on. Either the main or the input feed. With the normal power off you turn on the white PowerBack device on the right. It has a wire wrapped around one on the feeders from the power company. Via induction it senses when the power is restored and alerts you.

 

 

What type of equipment is sensitive to that? We would not have TV or Internet available while the power is out anyway.

 

You would be surprised. Modern refrigerators and furnaces just to name a couple. We had a furnace in our previous house that went through some self diagnostics when it started up. It sensed the dirty power and refused to start up. Problem solved with a low THD generator. We also have a UPS on the internet equipment because we need it for the phone. It's sized to run the equipment for at least a day but, of course, when I switch to generator power it takes over. Power outages typically only take down the internet because the equipment loses power. 

 

FYI, the top box on the right is two digital ammeters that I turn on when running the generator. They tell me the exact load on the generator. It would surprise people how little is actually is. 

 

16 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ours would not be run through the night for the same reason.

 

Amount of outages up here though, is far far more. I don't know if I've ever gone a year without losing it. Usually 2 to 4 times annually.

 

 

 

 

[Racinbob 11,079]

I overlooked the electric water heater. I'm liking your generator sizing even more. I think I would go with the 12kw. 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,557]

Troybuilt 7600 generator hooks up to whole house plug on outside of house. Disconnect at panel. Runs everything except central ac, but if i shut off everything else it'll run that too... has a remote monitoring panel that shows me load etc. put right at back door window so i can see how it is working...

 

Installed, permitted and inspected under permit by licensed electrician.

Edited September 18 by SylvanLakeWH

[PWL216 889]

@ebinmaine I may have missed, but what fuel will run the generator? Do you have gas to the house or use a large propane tank?

 

nmd, I see it.

Edited September 18 by PWL216

[ebinmaine 67,487]

4 minutes ago, PWL216 said:

@ebinmaine I may have missed, but what fuel will run the generator? Do you have gas to the house or use a large propane tank?

 

See below...

 

42 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

Valid point and good information but it will not be an option here. There is NO fuel supply to the house.

 

 

 

@ri702bill

 

I should clarify my previous post. 

I do have a propane stove. 

We cannot add any other propane appliances though. 

The tank location codes have changed in the 22 years since it was originally installed. 

To add an appliance we'd have to bring the system up to current code. 

 

We can ONLY do that by spending several THOUSAND dollars on a new installation. 

 

I can't even have a truck delivery. We have to go get our propane tanks filled just like any BBQ tank or camper. 

 

 

Soooo......

 

A propane generator is up for consideration but the tank makes the portability an extra issue. 

 

@PWL216. The generator fuel will likely be non ethanol gasoline. 

THAT we can buy and store easily. 

 

 

 

[PWL216 889]

I bought a Generac Whole Home generator 8 years ago. I’ve had a couple of issues with it, but it’s been one of the best purchases we’ve made for the house. I travel a lot for work and this gives me peace of mind knowing my wife doesn’t have to do anything. It starts automatically, runs everything in our house, including the AC, and then shuts off automatically when the street power is restored. I paid $3500 for the unit at generatorsdirect.com and I paid another $3500 for the plumbing and electrical hook ups. Mine runs on natural gas. At our prior house, we had a portable Generac 5000. We had a sub panel installed professionally. But when we lost power while I was traveling, my wife didn’t like to have to take it out of the shed, fuel it up, plug it in, start it up and then switch the panel (all the things your MIL may have to do), and I really didn’t blame her. So when we bought this place..a generator it was!

[adsm08 2,056]

5 hours ago, Handy Don said:

 

I’ve begun to look seriously at investing in solar panels and a large battery backup instead of a connection for the portable or the whole house natural gas model (favored by most of my neighbors!) Capital investment is higher, even with the government incentives, but there is more regular return on the investment and less concern about fuel availability.

 

Lots of other concerns though. We looked at that earlier this year. We were eligible for 100% off the panels and installation through a PA gov't program. When we looked there were so many reports of unfixable roof leaks after 2 years, and the battery was about $50K.

[lynnmor 7,305]

I run my generator on ethanol laced gasoline.  When the power outage is over I have a tee and valve after the tank and drain it into a gas can, then restart and let it run dry.  Been doing this for many years and the engine still starts on the first or second pull.

[Handy Don 12,217]

1 minute ago, adsm08 said:

many reports of unfixable roof leaks after 2 years, and the battery was about $50K

Had our roof replaced only three years ago so I am not eager to mess with that! Also, as I noted, leaning toward a system that is easily used by my spouse. Currently investigating wall mounted panels. Our roof already has HW solar panels “hogging” the most usable spot. Our mostly windowless SSW 2-story wall has the next best exposure. Europe has seen more wall-mounts than the US, so far. 

Yes, the capital outlay for the parts not covered by grants is pretty steep 😬

That said, a whole house generator, including wiring, plumbing (natural gas), etc. is in the $mid-teens and gives no return on investment (it is strictly a loss prevention and quality of life thing).--hence I’m doing the research and the math. We shall see! 🙂

[ebinmaine 67,487]

1 hour ago, adsm08 said:

 

Lots of other concerns though. We looked at that earlier this year. We were eligible for 100% off the panels and installation through a PA gov't program. When we looked there were so many reports of unfixable roof leaks after 2 years, and the battery was about $50K.

 

 

I've done almost no research into the programs available up here. 

No serious interest yet. 

 

But...

One of our customers has installed several large panels in the front yard of his shop. 

No batteries. 

No storage. 

No worries. 

He gets a credit for the power generated from the panels. 

That credit is applied to half a dozen accounts.  

 

When he MAKES more power than he USES... he does NOT get a check back. 

Needless to say he's got the math figured just about right to where HE sees the greater benefit.  

 

 

[lynnmor 7,305]

9 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

I've done almost no research into the programs available up here. 

No serious interest yet. 

 

But...

One of our customers has installed several large panels in the front yard of his shop. 

No batteries. 

No storage. 

No worries. 

He gets a credit for the power generated from the panels. 

That credit is applied to half a dozen accounts.  

 

When he MAKES more power than he USES... he does NOT get a check back. 

Needless to say he's got the math figured just about right to where HE sees the greater benefit.  

 

 

Of course the guy has no backup power so this system is of no use when the power is off.

[Handy Don 12,217]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

That credit is applied to half a dozen accounts.

Over the next few years, the amount of credit will diminish and there will also be at least two “infrastructure” charges: one to be able to supply to the grid and one for having the grid to use as a backup source --both likely based on max flow in either direction. Of course usage charges and generation credit will be there too. In Hawaii, credits are already way down and new installs are waiting for permission to connect to the grid (for a fee) due to excess supply during sunny days stressing the grid!

Here there are three parts to our electric bill already: a base amount for service capacity, an incremental amount for actual KW usage, and sometimes a surcharge for usage during periods of extreme demand. Plus taxes and other governmental stuff, of course. If you generate to the grid in excess of your demand you can apply the credit to one or two other accounts (typically it’s relatives’ homes) but anything above that is donated to the grid!