Trans swap? c120 into a 518H?

[Camdenlake 1]

Hey all. Picked up my first WheelHorse a 518H a couple weeks ago from the original owner all the paper work and all.  Very clean unit been sitting a long time.  Got it running good now but the hydro slips bad after 10min driving around the yard to the point it hardly moved. Very bummed.  Fluid is dirty in the res.  I didn’t think much of checked the dip stick in the back and super clean.  Didn’t realize at the time they were two different units.  So I search around a found a complete c120 auto unit for a decent price from a parts tractor.  I found a few discussions saying it’s a possible swap without it being a huge project?  What say the crowd here? 

 

Edited September 1 by Camdenlake

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,317]

If it’s apples to apples then it should be a nice straightforward swap. 
 You didn’t mention what the first tractor you bought was. 

[stevasaurus 22,738]

If you just picked up this horse and rolled it around to load it, it suggests that the "Tow Valve" is open.  Find it and close it...sometimes a 1/2" bolt on the left side of the horse.  Sounds like your issue.  Don't torque the heck out of it, just close it...snug.  Welcome to Red Square.  

[Camdenlake 1]

3 minutes ago, Sparky said:

If it’s apples to apples then it should be a nice straightforward swap. 
 You didn’t mention what the first tractor you bought was. 

Ooops fixed that.  Its a 518H.  Thank you.  

[Camdenlake 1]

3 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

If you just picked up this horse and rolled it around to load it, it suggests that the "Tow Valve" is open.  Find it and close it...sometimes a 1/2" bolt on the left side of the horse.  Sounds like your issue.  Don't torque the heck out of it, just close it...snug.  Welcome to Red Square.  

 

I dont think it has that feature.  Forgot to mention the unit i bought is a 518H 1988.  It moves ok till warm the belt is solid and not slipping too.  Based on the manual I found on this site it would fail the test for sure.  

[oliver2-44 9,749]

Make sure the pulley is tight to the pump shaft and not sipping there.

Also make sure the axle hubs are tight to the shaft and that one side is not slipping.

 

The 518H has an Eaton 7 Hydro and the C120 has a Sundstrand Hydro They both have the same frame mounting bolt pattern.

i don't know if the brake bank linkage is the same, or if the hydro speed control cam plate linkage is the same.

Also the early C120's had the gas tank under the front hood which gives you a little more room in the back. 

I'm not sure when they switched the tank to the rear, but by 1978.or before it was in the back. 

 

[Camdenlake 1]

2 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

Make sure the pulley is tight to the pump shaft and not sipping there.

Also make sure the axle hubs are tight to the shaft and that one side is not slipping.

 

The 518H has an Eaton 7 Hydro and the C120 has a Sundstrand Hydro They both have the same frame mounting bolt pattern.

i don't know if the brake bank linkage is the same, or if the hydro speed control cam plate linkage is the same.

Also the early C120's had the gas tank under the front hood which gives you a little more room in the back. 

I'm not sure when they switched the tank to the rear, but by 1978.or before it was in the back. 

 

Sounds very promising thank you.  I assume the c120 is much more robust?  It sure looks like it from the pics.  

[squonk 41,109]

All of the linkage will need to be swapped over. If the 518 has hyd. lift and the C 120 does not, you will need parts from a hyd lift trans Sunstrand to work and maybe the arm that hooks to the rockshaft that the lift cylinder actuates

[Camdenlake 1]

7 minutes ago, squonk said:

All of the linkage will need to be swapped over. If the 518 has hyd. lift and the C 120 does not, you will need parts from a hyd lift trans Sunstrand to work and maybe the arm that hooks to the rockshaft that the lift cylinder actuates

Mine is manual and the parts unit also appears manual to my eye but what do I know lol.  Pic attached.  

[squonk 41,109]

That looks like an older Sunstrand Hydrogear Transmission

[JCM 9,165]

to @Camdenlake

[pfrederi 17,739]

The motion control linkage for a  Sunstrand Hydro gear and an Eaton 100 are NOT the same

 

[Camdenlake 1]

27 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

The motion control linkage for a  Sunstrand Hydro gear and an Eaton 100 are NOT the same

 

Ok i will get the manual from this site and compare the part diagrams.  Thank you. 

[oliver2-44 9,749]

If you could find a parts tractor with an Eaton 1100 that would be a great upgrade.  The C1x5 and some of the 300,400 and 500 h tractors used the Eaton 

[oliver2-44 9,749]

5 hours ago, Camdenlake said:

 

The transaxle looks like it needs the axle seals replace as a minimum.  Check if the axle hubs move up/down or side to side any.   Any more that a tiny tiny bit of movement indicates the axle bearings need to be replaced.  This is not a terrible complicated job.

[Handy Don 12,222]

Practically all of the hydro linkages are different, as @pfrederi noted. So are some elements of the seat and fender mounting. I’d stay away from attempting to swap in the Sunstrand.

A damaged Eaton 700 is pretty much a doorstop--if you see metal filings in the reservoir oil it’s a goner.

 

@oliver2-44’s suggestion is much better. Do a full transaxle swap from an Eaton 1100 machine. The 1100 is a stout unit and uses a single reservoir for the pump motor and transaxle for oil.

The only “hacks” that you’ll need are:

1. to plumb the charge pump output of the 1100 directly into the filter input since your 518-H chassis has no hydro lift control valve or cylinder (it uses what we refer to as the “arm strong” lift system).

2. a small rework of the last part of the motion control linkage since the actuator arm on the 1100 is situated differently than the arm on the 700.

 

As an alternate, you may choose to swap your engine and topsides onto the chassis of the 1100 “donor” tractor--that is what I did since it seemed like less work AND I got hydraulic lift into the bargain. I now have a 518-H++ we call Clyde.

 

Edited September 2 by Handy Don

[Camdenlake 1]

45 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Practically all of the hydro linkages are different, as @pfrederi noted. So are some elements of the seat and fender mounting. I’d stay away from attempting to swap in the Sunstrand.

A damaged Eaton 700 is pretty much a doorstop--if you see metal filings in the reservoir oil it’s a goner.

 

@oliver2-44’s suggestion is much better. Do a full transaxle swap from an Eaton 1100 machine. The 1100 is a stout unit and uses a single reservoir for the pump motor and transaxle for oil.

The only “hacks” that you’ll need are:

1. to plumb the charge pump output of the 1100 directly into the filter input since your 518-H chassis has no hydro lift control valve or cylinder (it uses what we refer to as the “arm strong” lift system).

2. a small rework of the last part of the motion control linkage since the actuator arm on the 1100 is situated differently than the arm on the 700.

 

As an alternate, you may choose to swap your engine and topsides onto the chassis of the 1100 “donor” tractor--that is what I did since it seemed like less work AND I got hydraulic lift into the bargain. I now have a 518-H++ we call Clyde.

 

 

thank you very much for all that.  I just flushed it out and put fresh sae30 in it.  Worked better for about 10min driving around but started to loose speed after that.  I did find a visible amount of metal in the drain cap so figured it was a goner.  What’s the swap to a manual like? Find a manual with a toast engine likely simpler?  I seem to be cursed with hydro issues. A new Kubota I had a few years ago was never right from new.  
 

 

[953 nut 55,228]

5 hours ago, Camdenlake said:

What’s the swap to a manual like?

If you get a parts tractor with a manual transaxle you should be able to swap out the clutch/brake rods and arms that will be needed.  Or as @Handy Don said, swap your engine to the parts tractor.

[oliver2-44 9,749]

9 hours ago, Camdenlake said:

What’s the swap to a manual like?

Much simpler. 
I don’t own a 500 series. 
But you only have brake linkage and access fit the gear shifter and high low shifter to come up through the panel between you feet. You would have to remove the Hydro speed control linkage. You could modify the top panel or get the correct one from a used parts supplier like A-Z Tractor

[kpinnc 12,028]

Either of the swaps mentioned here will have issues, but both can be done. 

 

The good news about your 518-H is with no hydraulics, it is a simpler swap. Your success will be determined by your level of commitment and fab skills. Switching to a Sundstrand has basically 3 issues: one- you have no friction adjustment on the direction control lever, and the DCL in itself will need modifications to engage the hydro cam. Two: you'll have to fabricate a fender support. The Eaton and Sundstrands top bolt pattern is totally different. Third isn't such a big deal: lack of flip up fender will make getting to the filter a little more difficult. 

 

Swapping to a manual has far fewer unknowns. You'll have to locate some parts, but they are fairly easy to come by. You'll need a clutch pedal and linkage, a brake linkage, a shift pattern cover, etc... The main difference is that the center console and frame is set to accept either transmission type so you'll only have to move some things around without modification. You just need parts. Any classic 300/400/500 series manual "donor" tractor will give you what you need. Plus, your engine drive pulley is 5.25 OD, so pairing it with an 8-speed will give you a couple more MPH than standard. 

 

The export (European) version of the 518-H actually came with the much stronger Eaton 1100 and hydraulic lift. The domestic 516/518-H models were really a mismatch between such a high torque engine and a hydro with only 1/3 the output torque of the Eaton 1100. 

Edited September 3 by kpinnc

[Handy Don 12,222]

8 hours ago, kpinnc said:

The domestic 516/518-H models were really a mismatch between such a high torque engine and a hydro with only 1/3 the output torque of the Eaton 1100. 

Well put.

If blowing and mowing were the only jobs, these were reasonably well-suited.