How much battery (CCA/AH) do we NEED?

[ArturHawk 184]

Hi All,

 

Last fall I took apart my Raider 10 because it had been slow starting (low starter rpm) all season. Turns out the voltage regulator died and was not charging the battery. When I took everything apart to get to the regulator, I decided to make new battery cables, add a starter solenoid, weld some items that were cracked and now I'm a year later and about ready to cut grass again (Thank goodness I have a C120 that could pick up the work!).

 

I'm looking at getting a new battery as the old one was robbed for another machine and I am considering going LiFePO4 for its extended life. I put one of these in my motorcycle years ago and have never had a problem nor have I put the battery on a maintainer at the end of any season. I'm a bit frugle (very cheap) and want opinions on how much battery (CCA & AH) we ACTUALLY need in our machines.

The original U1 battery I was using had 230CCA and 35 AH and cost $30 from Wally World.

The replacement I would like to use is 250CCA and 9AH and costs $55.

 

The engine is a Tecumseh 10Hp and my only accessories will be lights. I am not planning on running anything off the battery while the tractor is off, so I do not thing the AH matters in this regard. My concern is if for some reason the tractor doesn't start in the first few seconds of cranking the I will run out of power. I feel like 9AH should give me a good amount of cranking time, but I'm not sure.

 

I may be overthinking but wanted to see if anybody had thoughts about this.

 

[ebinmaine 67,766]

3 minutes ago, ArturHawk said:

LiFePO4

 

Lithium anything is a no-go for now because of the charging capabilities required.

 

@Handy Don and maybe someone else we're talking about it recently...

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, ArturHawk said:

The replacement I would like to use is 250CCA and 9AH and costs $55

 

This is the way to go. If you don't use the machine for a month or so or if the temperature goes above 90° or below 32⁰  you definitely want to have a trickle charger on it.

[ri702bill 8,387]

There is no substitute for a sufficient quantity of CCA's (Cold Cranking Amps) if the tractor has electric start, battery ignition and sees use in the winter. I look for 375 or higher - both my workers are 4 season units.

Battery is usually a U1 or U1-R (posts reversed) ..... Be wary of inexpensive (aka cheap) lead-acid batteries - most retailers now offer only a 30 day free replacement, the rest of the short warranty is pro-rated.

I prefer the ones sold by Tractor Supply. DO check the sticker(s) on the battery you buy. Look for the date of manufacture, NOT the shipped date. No need to get stuck with a new, way too old stock battery made in April now with a 90 day warranty. Get a fresh one !!!

[ebinmaine 67,766]

9 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

There is no substitute for a sufficient quantity of CCA's (

 

 

This is the reason why I switched over to using car batteries. There's a very common group number that's used in bunches of foreign vehicles which will fit in some of the older battery carriers if a small wedge of material is placed on the long side.

I believe it's group 51 or 51r. Either will work depending on cables.

Or alternatively, a battery hold down could be installed by drilling two holes in the existing battery tray. That's what I did on the Tecumsehorse I've been working on lately. 

 

[ri702bill 8,387]

Good to know.....

OE on them thar Belgian-made Horses???  

[squonk 41,171]

Cables are very important. What size wire did you use? Std. Garden tractor cables are 6 ga. can handle 250-300 amps. I always upsize and use 4 ga.  A big CCA battery will give lot's of reserve. But unless your charging system quits, engine cranks a lot before starting or you run 4000 lights all that reserve just goes along for the ride. That 575 CCA battery can only push so much through the available wiring before something melts. 

 

https://jascoautomotive.com/automotive-wire-amperage-capacity-chart/

 

I use 250-300 CCA batteries from Wal Mart and only have had 1 premature failure supplying 4-5 tractors with batteries. I change them out every 3 years and keep 1 old battery kicking around for my engine stand or other testing.

[ArturHawk 184]

Thanks for the responses!

 

57 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

Lithium anything is a no-go for now because of the charging capabilities required.

 

@Handy Don and maybe someone else we're talking about it recently...

 

 

 

 

This is the way to go. If you don't use the machine for a month or so or if the temperature goes above 90° or below 32⁰  you definitely want to have a trickle charger on it.

I'm a little bit confused with this. 

1. What are the charging capabilities required? Like I mentioned, I had replaced a battery with lithium on my motorcycle and that has not had any problems. The bike is from 1989, and doesn't have anything aside from a standard voltage regulator like our tractors.

2. The 250CCA and 9AH battery IS the LiFePO4.

 

1 hour ago, ri702bill said:

There is no substitute for a sufficient quantity of CCA's (Cold Cranking Amps) if the tractor has electric start, battery ignition and sees use in the winter. I look for 375 or higher - both my workers are 4 season units.

Battery is usually a U1 or U1-R (posts reversed) ..... Be wary of inexpensive (aka cheap) lead-acid batteries - most retailers now offer only a 30 day free replacement, the rest of the short warranty is pro-rated.

I prefer the ones sold by Tractor Supply. DO check the sticker(s) on the battery you buy. Look for the date of manufacture, NOT the shipped date. No need to get stuck with a new, way too old stock battery made in April now with a 90 day warranty. Get a fresh one !!!

I've never had an issue with the 230 CCA batteries, I am more concerned with the 9AH vs 35AH capacity. Do the newer/larger engines prefer higher CCAs?

 

4 minutes ago, squonk said:

Cables are very important. What size wire did you use? Std. Garden tractor cables are 6 ga. can handle 250-300 amps. I always upsize and use 4 ga.  A big CCA battery will give lot's of reserve. But unless your charging system quits, engine cranks a lot before starting or you run 4000 lights all that reserve just goes along for the ride. That 575 CCA battery can only push so much through the available wiring before something melts. 

 

https://jascoautomotive.com/automotive-wire-amperage-capacity-chart/

 

I use 250-300 CCA batteries from Wal Mart and only have had 1 premature failure supplying 4-5 tractors with batteries. I change them out every 3 years and keep 1 old battery kicking around for my engine stand or other testing.

I used 2 ga. because I had extra lying around.

 

Regardless of CCA, the U1 batteries are all 35AH. But that is the heart of my question, is 35AH more than we realistically need? I do not know how long I could crank with a 35AH battery, but if it was 5 minutes, would a 9AH that could let me crank 1.25 minutes be acceptable for use? Again, I don't know if these are realistic numbers, I'm just asking if anybody had tried anything like this?

 

[ebinmaine 67,766]

1 minute ago, ArturHawk said:

I'm a little bit confused with this. 

1. What are the charging capabilities required? Like I mentioned, I had replaced a battery with lithium on my motorcycle and that has not had any problems. The bike is from 1989, and doesn't have anything aside from a standard voltage regulator like our tractors.

2. The 250CCA and 9AH battery IS the LiFePO4

 

I'm not familiar enough with the technology to answer accurately so I'll let someone else...

 

I do know that the Lithium anything batteries require a particular type of charger that old tractors and vehicles do not have. 

 

[ebinmaine 67,766]

30 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

Belgian-made

?

 

This one's murican 

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, squonk said:

Cables are very important. What size wire did you use? Std. Garden tractor cables are 6 ga. can handle 250-300 amps. I always upsize and use 4 ga.  A big CCA battery will give lot's of reserve. But unless your charging system quits, engine cranks a lot before starting or you run 4000 lights all that reserve just goes along for the ride. That 575 CCA battery can only push so much through the available wiring before something melts. 

 

https://jascoautomotive.com/automotive-wire-amperage-capacity-chart/

 

I use 250-300 CCA batteries from Wal Mart and only have had 1 premature failure supplying 4-5 tractors with batteries. I change them out every 3 years and keep 1 old battery kicking around for my engine stand or other testing.

 

 

Good chart!

 

 

I use the automotive batteries because they're inexpensive,  fairly fresh, and easy access (when available) 

 

 

[squonk 41,171]

I don't pay attention to amp hrs. on cranking batteries. I look at reserve amps. If you're cranking more than 5 minutes on an engine you have bigger issues you need to address. 

 

I put an Optima glass mat battery in a 83 Honda motorcycle. I read that there may be a charging issue. But I never had a problem.

 

A 230 CCA battery will start any WH outside of a D250. Put a 300 in it and forget about it. 

[lynnmor 7,321]

1 hour ago, squonk said:

A 230 CCA battery will start any WH outside of a D250. Put a 300 in it and forget about it. 

 

300 or more unless you want half a battery.  I have had good service from batteries made by East Penn.

[Handy Don 12,281]

34 minutes ago, ArturHawk said:

I feel like 9AH should give me a good amount of cranking time, but I'm not sure.

You have put your finger on it. A long crank will use a larger percentage of this battery’s capacity. LiPo lifecycle is measured in discharge cycles so 20 starts that use 20% of the capacity equals 4 full discharge cycles. Check the specs for total life cycles to see where that leaves you.

 

Also, LiPo charging is a bit esoteric so be sure that the input requirements (voltage range and amperage) for your battery choice can be met by the charging capability of the tractor. A fail here can prematurely kill the battery.

 

Lastly, make sure the circuitry for safely controlling the charging is built into the battery and is NOT expected from the charger--this is a critical safety concern since incorrect charging can cause a LiPo to combust and burn nearly uncontrollably.

[ri702bill 8,387]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

can cause a LiPo to combust and burn nearly uncontrollably

 

Don, you forgot the important part.....

Edited August 1 by ri702bill

[953 nut 55,393]

3 hours ago, squonk said:

That 575 CCA battery can only push so much through the available wiring before something melts. 

 

https://jascoautomotive.com/automotive-wire-amperage-capacity-chart/

Mike, thank you so much for posting this link.       We have so many people on here who seem to use standard NEC amperage ratings for multiple conductors in a raceway and try to say the is the most that a wire can safely carry. Most wires on our tractors aren't over two or three feet long and are in free air.  

[Achto 27,639]

17 hours ago, ArturHawk said:

The original U1 battery I was using had 230CCA and 35 AH and cost $30 from Wally World.

The replacement I would like to use is 250CCA and 9AH and costs $55.

 

One suggestion  - Choose your battery, bring it home & hook it on a trickle charger over night before installing it. It is good to have a good full charge on the battery before it takes a load for the first time. I have around 20 gt batteries ranging from 6 months to 9yrs old. Very few issues using this method. Oh, I'm a tight a$$ too. No high dollar batteries for me, Wal Mart or Fleet Farm brand all around.

[lynnmor 7,321]

13 minutes ago, Achto said:

 Choose your battery, bring it home & hook it on a trickle charger over night before installing it. It is good to have a good full charge on the battery before it takes a load for the first time.

I do that with each and every battery I buy, I doubt that many do this and opt for the free install of their car batteries.  You know, drop the new one in there over the waste products and clean nothing.  Be sure that your trickle charger has the output to do a real battery charge, some do very little.

[WHX?? 48,853]

Like a few others here I use the cheapest 230/35s I can lay my grubby mitts on. Even on the big 520s. I got many horses to feed. Yes charge before use.

Keep them on a decent trickle charger during extended idle times. Extends the battery life by 2 years and always a full charge when you do need it. 

[oliver2-44 9,787]

I looked into using a LiPo battery on our Jet Ski last month. The Walmart Chinese battery manufacture listed my Ski as suitable for it that battery. However when I looked into the specs it was rated as not to exceed 150 deg F. On my ski the battery is next to the engine and directly under the gas tank under the seat in a closed-vented compartment I decided that location was to warm and to dangerous under the gas tank and under me for a LiPo battery.
 

I believe the Raider tractor has the battery under the gas tank and near the engine , but in open air.  I still would not put a LiPo battery under a gas tank. IMHO 

 

In my reading I learned That brand LiPo battery would not charge below 32F and it’s capacity decreased significantly below 32F. 
 

Fun Fact: In my reading I learned Tesla cars have a heater to keep the battery warm. However if you get below 20% battery capacity and it’s below 32F. The battery is consuming as much energy keeping itself warm as a charger is putting in. So no charging is actually happening. 

[adsm08 2,103]

22 hours ago, Handy Don said:

this is a critical safety concern since incorrect charging can cause a LiPo to combust and burn nearly uncontrollably.

 

 

 

 

Not trying to knock Teslas or EVs, but this is the type of battery fire in question, albeit on a slightly larger scale.

[Handy Don 12,281]

1 hour ago, adsm08 said:

Not trying to knock Teslas or EVs, but this is the type of battery fire in question, albeit on a slightly larger scale.

Scooter and eBike batteries are only slightly larger than possible tractor batteries. Cheap eBikes using aftermarket batteries and chargers are now used by thousands of food deliverers and messengers in NYC. Improper handling/charging as well as poor quality control at manufacture has led to fires in NY, some with fatalities. New laws impose new standards and safeguards on sales/storage/charging; just don’t count on a lot of compliance.

[Crobson 20]

Please note that LiFePo4 and Lipo batteries are very different. LiFePo4 are generally safe, but can't be charged below freezing, unless they have a heater. Lipo tend to become spicy pillows. Lithium Titanate are nearly indestructible, -22F to 130F, and a 6 cell pack has a max charge voltage of 16v, making them unlikely to die from overcharge.

 

Lead-acid batteries are "tolerant" to overcharge from a funky charging system, in that they'll sit there and boil. Any lithium battery I'd trust will have a BMS to keep the cells balanced and to prevent over/undercharge. Unfortunately, they do that by essentially disconnecting the battery. The charging system might jump from 14.8v to 22v without at least the small load from gently overcharging a lead-acid battery.

 

I looked into duplicating a military transient voltage regulator, it used a big transistor and a zenier diode to clamp brief spikes, and the transistor could handle enough to pop the breaker if it continued.

 

At the moment, my 520h has a giant group 65 AGM sitting on a shelf I made from a hitch weight frame. It's temporarily wired in with 2awg cables to the stock battery compartment. Today was the first time I've run it since last year, now that the deck works. Lets just say it didn't have any problem cranking.