Kohler ignition timing questions

[C-85 681]

I am trying to fix a Kohler engine for a friend and could use some help.  This is a K181 on a Gravely walk behind tractor and it doesn't have a battery ignition.  It didn't have any spark and after trying a new set of points and condenser, we bought an aftermarket coil.  I installed that and still don't have any spark.  I've checked some more and read some and watched some videos on timing Kohlers, and I believe I have everything hooked up right.  I had some confusion on the timing part.  One source recommended hooking up a mulit meter from the points to ground to set the gap.  I tried that and my meters alarm never shut off (indicating ground) when spinning the flywheel by hand.  I checked the wire from the new coil to the points, and that stays grounded.  I don't believe that wire is cut or grounding.  Now I'm wondering if something is wrong with the new coil, I'm assuming that shouldn't be grounded all the time from its points wire, but I don't know enough about electronics, so I could use some help.  I have a Kohler service manual and for this type of repair it doesn't offer much help. There's a lot more info on battery type ignitions and schematics, but I haven't seen one for non battery types, so I'm lost!

 

C-85

[rmaynard 15,459]

There is a current thread going on here about the same problem you are having. I will try to get you the link. However, the timing method you are referring to is called static timing. The first thing you do is to find the S and T marks on the edge of the flywheel.  Set the points gap to 0.020. Then disconnect all the wires from the points. Hook one lead from your meter to ground and the other to the points. Set the meter to continuity. Rotate the engine by hand, clockwise (as viewed from the front) until the meters continuity sound just stops. That mean your points have started to open. Then view the marks on the flywheel. The S mark should be perfectly aligned with the line on the bearing plate. If not, adjust the points more open or closed until rotating the flywheel opens them at the exact right spot.

[C-85 681]

Thanks Maynard, this is a big help!  Another mystery I have is that I found the timing marks on the flywheel and base plate.  When I was trying to adjust this, I expected the points to open at the S mark, but these don't open until the S mark is at about 4 oclock on the flywheel.  I'm trying to figure out if this is okay or not.  I'm posting a picture, but I've been having a hard time posting pictures, so I hope it comes out.  I don't think this has been apart internally, but it's hard to tell.

 

 

C-85

[rmaynard 15,459]

Make sure you are rotating the engine clockwise as looking at it from the front .

[C-85 681]

Thanks Maynard, this is a big help!  Another mystery I have is that I found the timing marks on the flywheel and base plate.  When I was trying to adjust this, I expected the points to open at the S mark, but these don't open until the S mark is at about 4 oclock on the flywheel.  I'm trying to figure out if this is okay or not.  I'm posting a picture, but I've been having a hard time posting pictures, so I hope it comes out.  I don't think this has been apart internally, but it's hard to tell.

 

 

C-85

Good to confirm, and I did spin it clockwise.

 

Thanks again,

 

C-85

[C-85 681]

Good to confirm, and I did spin it clockwise.

 

Thanks again,

 

C-85

[953 nut 55,229]

Attached are screen shots from the Kohler engine manual. Hope this helps.

 

[C-85 681]

Good to confirm, and I did spin it clockwise.

 

Thanks again,

 

C-85

 

Part of my mystery is the internal timing.  This engine doesn't have a sight hole in the air shroud and no hole through its base plate.  I didn't see any info in my Kohler manual that shows this.  I found the S and T on the flywheel and put a black mark on the S.  I saw this mark on the base plate and was thinking that the points should be open at this mark, but on this they don't open until the flywheel is at about 4 to 5 oclock (a little more than a half turn from this mark) and I don't know if this is right, okay, or if its internal timing is off?  Do I have the right mark on the base plate to evaluate this?  I hope my picture of this that I put in shows, please let me know if it didn't and I'll try again, I wish I knew more on how to successfully insert pictures!

 

Thanks for any help!

 

C-85

 

 

 

[953 nut 55,229]

Do you know how old your engine is? If it has the spark advance cam rather than compression release then static timing won't work. 

If it is an older engine the sight hole would be on the aluminum bearing plate.

Ignition timing on Kohler engines.

 

Gapping the ignition points at .020 has always been the standard answer to how points should be set. That probably will get you into the ballpark where the engine will run, but with a bit of additional effort you can improve the engine’s power and performance.

The Kohler engine manual in the Red Square files section covers two methods for setting the ignition timing, Static Timing and using a Timing Light. This manual is a relatively new manual and it overlooks the fact that many of our engines were built prior to the ACR (automatic compression release) camshaft.

Earlier engines (mostly 1965 and earlier) had a Spark Advance camshaft that can not be timed using Static timing. At rest (and very low RPMs) the timing is retarded to fire slightly after TDC. The timing mark (SP) on your flywheel is at twenty degrees before top dead center but at rest the points on these engines break about ten degrees after top dead center. The only reliable way to check or set the timing on these engines is with a timing light.

There are a couple ways to determine what camshaft you have. Presuming the camshaft in your engine is the one it was born with the data plate on the engine has a suffix that can tell you what camshaft was used. The table below will tell you the suffix applicable to your engine. The other way to determine what camshaft you have is to remove the cam gear cover and take a look. If you see a mechanism attached to the cam gear it is the ACR cam.

 

 

The following engines have the spark advance camshaft;

K-141, Suffix prior to “C”

K-161, Suffix prior to “J”

K-181, Suffix prior to “D”

K-241, Suffix prior to “D”

[C-85 681]

Good to confirm, and I did spin it clockwise.

 

Thanks again,

 

C-85

 

Part of my mystery is the internal timing.  This engine doesn't have a sight hole in the air shroud and no hole through its base plate.  I didn't see any info in my Kohler manual that shows this.  I found the S and T on the flywheel and put a black mark on the S.  I saw this mark on the base plate and was thinking that the points should be open at this mark, but on this they don't open until the flywheel is at about 4 to 5 oclock (a little more than a half turn from this mark) and I don't know if this is right, okay, or if its internal timing is off?  Do I have the right mark on the base plate to evaluate this?  I hope my picture of this that I put in shows, please let me know if it didn't and I'll try again, I wish I knew more on how to successfully insert pictures!

 

Thanks for any help!

 

C-85

 

 

 

Here is all the info I have on this Kohler -

 

 

I'm wondering if anyone can confirm that on this non battery model if the horizontal line on its base plate is where 20 degres before TDC and is when the points should be open.  On this, they don't open until the flywheel is at about 4 or 5 oclock (where the S mark is), so I'm trying to figure out if this is right or not.

 

C-85