Transmission Suggestions

[Achto 27,203]

Did my first competition pull this weekend. Choose the wrong gear in my class and ran out of power short of placing. Oh well, my mistake. I also bumped up to 25hp+ stock class. In this class I choose a lower gear. Part way into my pull I all of a sudden lost drive to the left wheel. 

 

I am running a Raider tranny with a 10 pinion limited slip diff, ( not sure if it has aluminum or steel side plates ) the tractor weights in at 1050lbs. I went through  an external inspection of the tranny & found no issues. The tranny shifts through all the gears with no abnormal sounds or issues.

 

Just wondering what your suggestions as to the strongest gear shift tranny made by , or if there is a suggestion as to a stronger diff that would fit in my tranny. 

 

@fast88pu, what tranny are you running in your pullers? Any mods inside of them?

 

[oliver2-44 9,355]

Well that adds 2 more pulls to your learning curve.

Just to verify, even when you let off the throttle the left drive didn’t return. 
I hope the didn’t have to pull you off the track with a a G&%# one!

 

Lookig forward to disassembly pictures. 

[Achto 27,203]

10 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

Just to verify, even when you let off the throttle the left drive didn’t return. 
I hope the didn’t have to pull you off the track with a a G&%# one!

 

On or off the throttle, no drive from the left wheel.

 

Drove off the track & on the trailer under it's own power.  Can only get the right wheel to provide power though.

Edited July 15 by Achto

[Handy Don 11,820]

Not an expert by any means, but I’d strongly suspect that the splined axle gear has stripped (edited). Clip is still on holdiing the axle in place so it didn't go (embarrassigly) off on its own!

Edited July 15 by Handy Don

[ebinmaine 66,311]

6 hours ago, Achto said:

Just wondering what your suggestions as to the strongest gear shift tranny made by , or if there is a suggestion as to a stronger diff that would fit in my tranny

 

It's widely accepted that the 

8 PINION 8 SPEED with 1 1/8" DIAMETER AXLES

is the strongest Wheelhorse manual transmission. 

The differential end plates and the differential pinions are larger and stronger than the 10 pinion setup. 

 

You would lose the advantage of Limited Slip Differential but gain strength. 

 

You could fully lock the differential by either flipping 4 of the 8 pinions or welding each pinion gear set together. 

 

 

The 8 PINION 8 SPEED was made from roughly 1972 all the way through the end of production. 

 

I believe there is some interchangeability from an Open diff to an LSD. I'm not sure what may or may not need to be modified. 

 

I have both types on the shelf in the shop so I could get you any measurements needed if that helps.  

 

 

 

[squonk 40,662]

Axle is splined to a gear. Probably the same thing happened as this. 

 

[jeremi3210 705]

8 pinion would be the way to go. You might be able to fit one in the raider trans. When I put one in my 953 I just had to shave a little off the bull gear.

[Achto 27,203]

1 hour ago, jeremi3210 said:

8 pinion would be the way to go. You might be able to fit one in the raider trans.

 

 Does a 520 have an 8 pinion in it? I may have access to one of those.

[Handy Don 11,820]

9 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

 Does a 520 have an 8 pinion in it? I may have access to one of those.

The manual for the Eaton 1100 transaxle has this:

 

 

 

 

So I’d say yes. 

[Handy Don 11,820]

2 hours ago, squonk said:

Axle is splined to a gear. Probably the same thing happened as this. 

Thanks for the picture and clarifying! 

[jeremi3210 705]

3 hours ago, Achto said:

 

 Does a 520 have an 8 pinion in it? I may have access to one of those.

Yes it sould, but I may be wrong here but on some of the newer ones didn't they use a different bearing for the 1533 bearing.

[oliver2-44 9,355]

I'm collecting parts to rebuild some transmissions and happen to have an 8 Pinion Diff and a Limited Slip Diff that I could pull out to measure and take pictures of.

This was an interested learning experience for me.  Sorry I didn't pull the IPL and get all the correct terminology.

I can measure anything else you might need.

To me, it looks like the 8 -Pinion diff would fit in a Limited Slip case if they both used the 1533 bearing.

I'm not sure how the diff offsets would work, maybe the diff gear is wide enough that it wouldn't matter.  

you would have to verify if the 1/2" offset interfered with anything else.

8 Pinnion on right, Limited Slip on left.

They both look the same width at the outer ends that fit into the case bearings.

so i think the 8 Pinion would fit in a limited slip case.

The outer housing on the 8 Pinion are equal length on each side.

The outer housings on the Limited Slip Diff  are of different lengths and create about a 1/2" offset. 

The Limited Slip diff gear roughly measures 1.66x wide.

The 8-Pinion diff gear roughly measures 1.88x wide  (hard to hold the caliper firm and take a picture at the same time.

This is an 8-Pinion diff with one axle gear in place.

This is a Limited Slip diff with all pinions and axle gear. 

This is the limited Slip Pinions in the carrier. I seen to have read its made out of pressed powder metal. 

Its lighter than expected weight wise.  back when I disassembled it, the other half had a crack.

  I set it on edge looking at it, and it flopped over and cracked in half. so they are very fragile.

These are the diff end caps top 8-Pinion, middle steel Limited Slip, bottom, cast steel Limited Slip diff.

This is the Limited Slip Axle Gear it is roughly .09x smaller than the 8-Pinnion diff gear.

 

This is the 8-Pinnion diff gear.

These are the gears that mate/drive the diff, Limited Slip on Left and 8-Pinion on right.

They both have the same numbe rof teeth on the small end.

They are the same outer diameter and same number of teeth.

[Handy Don 11,820]

1 hour ago, oliver2-44 said:

Great pictures, thanks!

I'm surprised at how little engagement there is between the axle gear and the pinions here on the LSD. I’d surmise that any or all of the axle gear, the pinion carrier, or the pinion gears themselves are pretty worn and approaching end-of-life. 

Edited July 15 by Handy Don

[Achto 27,203]

@oliver2-44 Thank you for all the research. Looks like switching from one to the other maybe a bolt in application.

[ebinmaine 66,311]

@oliver2-44

 

AWESOME POST

[oliver2-44 9,355]

@Achto Somewhere in my fuzzy memory I recall someone have to grind a little off a diff for it to clear something. 

But that's what grinders are made for

I currently don't have any bearing in the six speed case I have.

I may dig around to see if I saved some used bearing that I could  use to test fit the 8 Pinion in the six speed case.   

 

Edited July 15 by oliver2-44

[Handy Don 11,820]

If memory serves, @stevasaurus cited axle length differences with the LSD. But I assume you are thinking to keep the 520 axles with its 8-pinion differential so not an issue.

And yes, @oliver2-44, an excellent post!

Edited July 15 by Handy Don

[WHX?? 47,857]

[jeremi3210 705]

If you have the gear on the left your gonna have to shave a little off the bull gear for clearance. Just like 3/16 to 1/4 inch. Also use the 8 pinion axles cause they are both the same length, the 10 pinion ones are different sizes per side 

[oliver2-44 9,355]

@Achto sorry it took me so long to get these pictures been busy with a elderly family member. I think this is what @jeremi3210 is referring to.

The 6 speed (small) gear on the right does not have the gear teeth machined all the way to the end like the 8 speed gear on the left.

The teeth on the end of the bull gear will need to be beveled slightly so they doesn't bottom out 

[wallfish 16,721]

Doesn't Lowell sell the pinion spring for the LS trans?  Those springs get worn and will let it slip faster. I was always curious if adding a second spring inside the first spring (probably need to cut it) would lock it more but still allow for that slip.

[ebinmaine 66,311]

16 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Doesn't Lowell sell the pinion spring for the LS trans?  Those springs get worn and will let it slip faster. I was always curious if adding a second spring inside the first spring (probably need to cut it) would lock it more but still allow for that slip.

 

Yes he does. 

 

 

 

I've wondered if spreading the single spring apart would add tension. ?

But then it still has to fit back in the same sized place.  

[WHX?? 47,857]

Differential carnage to come boys. A new LS spring ain't gonna fix this one. Stay tuned for the WTF & fix. 

On 7/15/2024 at 4:35 PM, Handy Don said:

keep the 520 axles

Not an option. 

[Achto 27,203]

Finally got a chance to open up this tranny. Was very anxious to check out the carnage. 

First surprise that I found was that right hand outer diff cover was cast steel, the left hand side was aluminum.  Inspected all gears and every thing look great. Then....I pulled the diff apart. This is where I found the issue, I did a really good job of making "tranny gravel".

 

@WHX?? was nice enough to drop off an 8 pinion diff from a 520H for me. After inspection I have found a couple fitment issue. First the 520 uses different bearings to support the diff side plates,  that have a larger ID. Plan as of now is to turn down the side plates on the outer diff plates so that they will fit in the 1533 bearings that are in the tranny. As long as I'm at the lathe, I will also clearance the bull gear teeth, thank for the heads up on that part @jeremi3210 & @oliver2-44 I will need to keep the axles from the 6 speed 10 pinion. The 520 axles are toast. 

 

On the fence as to weather or not I will lock the 8 pinion diff. I think I may leave it open & see how it does. I can always tear it apart again if I'm not happy.

 

If I decide to lock the diff thoughts on the best options??

Flip the pinions or weld the pinions??

Edited July 22 by Achto

[ebinmaine 66,311]

26 minutes ago, Achto said:

Flip the pinions or weld the pinions??

 

@Greentored may be able to shed light there but he's busy. 

 

 

I'd FLIP the pinions... but I'm not the one who's doing the work.. Or the pulling.