Out of my league :-/ Onan engine won't start

[rwlvt 1]

Hi folks,

 

I tried to help a friend with a Toro 520H that won't start.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/19fPX79LGMPCBcnB6

 

(Attempting to insert a photo by URL doesn't seem to be working.)

 

Here are some identifiers for the engine:

Engine Model: P220G-I/109556
P/N941811
S/N:    A973636148
 

I went through the usual--checking for spark.  I'm getting spark in both cylinders.  So, i'm looking at gas.  There is a fuel pump on the side of the engine. 

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RY4hHAfLLGeyCBaS8

 

I pulled the gas line below it and am getting gas from the tank.  I pulled the line above it and cranked the engine.  I wasn't getting anything!  So, I assumed it was a bad fuel pump.  I ordered and installed a new fuel pump, but still no luck.  This is a vacuum actuated pump, so I pulled the pump and stuck my thumb over the tube while I cranked the engine.  I expected to get either a vacuum or compression.  I got neither.  Any thoughts about where I go from here?  

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Ron

[Achto 27,288]

Many have switched to an electric pump. Some examples.

https://www.amazon.com/Pressure-Universal-Electric-Motorcycle-Carburetor/dp/B08XTTQCCR/ref=sr_1_10?crid=JGR6KXJ3HVZE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.rO4QqGkJde3nFVjplY8xJVGgLM7uWiHy9GR1ZJMwM6YfgC1k1H_rovw9LNWklV6ZuXROvNfGWrkdUIa-RVJj9jF_oyk5xdhT_AW3D4URIl4aA1u6z6uRAGUr54o7fzr-uVpzZjZwzaUDO-FJrPdZ-e_6jNKa2gmphLWzTLAbn4IWxcxPWm0kt3u8uxo_az9BzQC9CZmlX_ec6rSmm-ptOiCoSFgtqvcud8RFIfHr27Y.eZRiXSzNdCnzr9SEePgSIfTg7OtYZsS1MhpByJExA6w&dib_tag=se&keywords=low+pressure+electric+fuel+pump+1-3+psi&qid=1718750499&sprefix=low+pressure+electri%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-10

 

https://www.amazon.com/Solid-State-Fuel-Pump-FPF-60304N/dp/B08WHXTKH4/ref=sr_1_8?crid=JGR6KXJ3HVZE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.rO4QqGkJde3nFVjplY8xJVGgLM7uWiHy9GR1ZJMwM6YfgC1k1H_rovw9LNWklV6ZuXROvNfGWrkdUIa-RVJj9jF_oyk5xdhT_AW3D4URIl4aA1u6z6uRAGUr54o7fzr-uVpzZjZwzaUDO-FJrPdZ-e_6jNKa2gmphLWzTLAbn4IWxcxPWm0kt3u8uxo_az9BzQC9CZmlX_ec6rSmm-ptOiCoSFgtqvcud8RFIfHr27Y.eZRiXSzNdCnzr9SEePgSIfTg7OtYZsS1MhpByJExA6w&dib_tag=se&keywords=low+pressure+electric+fuel+pump+1-3+psi&qid=1718750635&sprefix=low+pressure+electri%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-8

[WHX?? 48,083]

Will it run by hand feeding or sniffin salts? 

[953 nut 54,397]

could be an old hose that has a small crack just enough to stop the pulsation from being felt.

[WHX?? 48,083]

May not be related to your problem but one thing we always do with Onans is check the nine pin connector behind the engine. 

[Handy Don 11,890]

There is a hose hidden inside the shroud tins connecting a nipple on the engine block to the back of the pulse fuel pump. These age, crack, and leak after a measly 40 years or so of service (can you believe it?)

 

I used standard  heavy-wall ¼” fuel line to replace and it worked fine.

 

The only nuisance is getting the shroud off to access the engine end of the hose. There is a bolt under the coil and two that are accessed through holes in the engine mounting plate.

 

The excellent news is that once you have the shroud off, you can thoroughly clean the cooling fins--especially on the rear cylinder. This is essential for long service life on Onan engines. Don’t just blow it out with compressed air, use a brush and soap and water if needed to get rid of any oily residue and accumulated junk.

Edited June 19 by Handy Don

[rwlvt 1]

12 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Will it run by hand feeding or sniffin salts? 

By this, I'm assuming you mean, did I try priming the chambers?  The answer is "Yes".  I got a short fire, but that was it.  No gas behind it.

[rwlvt 1]

12 hours ago, Achto said:

Many have switched to an electric pump. Some examples.

https://www.amazon.com/Pressure-Universal-Electric-Motorcycle-Carburetor/dp/B08XTTQCCR/ref=sr_1_10?crid=JGR6KXJ3HVZE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.rO4QqGkJde3nFVjplY8xJVGgLM7uWiHy9GR1ZJMwM6YfgC1k1H_rovw9LNWklV6ZuXROvNfGWrkdUIa-RVJj9jF_oyk5xdhT_AW3D4URIl4aA1u6z6uRAGUr54o7fzr-uVpzZjZwzaUDO-FJrPdZ-e_6jNKa2gmphLWzTLAbn4IWxcxPWm0kt3u8uxo_az9BzQC9CZmlX_ec6rSmm-ptOiCoSFgtqvcud8RFIfHr27Y.eZRiXSzNdCnzr9SEePgSIfTg7OtYZsS1MhpByJExA6w&dib_tag=se&keywords=low+pressure+electric+fuel+pump+1-3+psi&qid=1718750499&sprefix=low+pressure+electri%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-10

 

https://www.amazon.com/Solid-State-Fuel-Pump-FPF-60304N/dp/B08WHXTKH4/ref=sr_1_8?crid=JGR6KXJ3HVZE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.rO4QqGkJde3nFVjplY8xJVGgLM7uWiHy9GR1ZJMwM6YfgC1k1H_rovw9LNWklV6ZuXROvNfGWrkdUIa-RVJj9jF_oyk5xdhT_AW3D4URIl4aA1u6z6uRAGUr54o7fzr-uVpzZjZwzaUDO-FJrPdZ-e_6jNKa2gmphLWzTLAbn4IWxcxPWm0kt3u8uxo_az9BzQC9CZmlX_ec6rSmm-ptOiCoSFgtqvcud8RFIfHr27Y.eZRiXSzNdCnzr9SEePgSIfTg7OtYZsS1MhpByJExA6w&dib_tag=se&keywords=low+pressure+electric+fuel+pump+1-3+psi&qid=1718750635&sprefix=low+pressure+electri%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-8

Quite a difference in price on these.  I know you generally get what you pay for, but do you have any idea what justifies the difference?

[WHX?? 48,083]

Bit of quality I would suppose along with country of origin 

Personally I use the cheapy with no issues. 

[Achto 27,288]

1 hour ago, rwlvt said:

I know you generally get what you pay for, but do you have any idea what justifies the difference?

 

I have 1 tractor with the expensive one & 2 with the cheap ones. All 3 are happy with the pump that is in them.

[rwlvt 1]

Update:  I pulled the shroud off the motor.  The vacuum tube to the fuel pump looked pretty new.  I put my thumb over the port in the engine and turned it over... nothing.  Then, rather late in the game, I brought over my compression tester.  Zero in both cylinders!  I thought this was so unusual that I wondered whether it could be my tester.  I tested the compression on my own Wheelhorse.  125lbs.  The tester was fine.  

 

So, my friend has a Toro 520H and accessories with no engine.  Any thoughts on where to go from here?

 

 

[lynnmor 7,246]

50 minutes ago, rwlvt said:

Update:  I pulled the shroud off the motor.  The vacuum tube to the fuel pump looked pretty new.  I put my thumb over the port in the engine and turned it over... nothing.  Then, rather late in the game, I brought over my compression tester.  Zero in both cylinders!  I thought this was so unusual that I wondered whether it could be my tester.  I tested the compression on my own Wheelhorse.  125lbs.  The tester was fine.  

 

So, my friend has a Toro 520H and accessories with no engine.  Any thoughts on where to go from here?

 

 

Pull the heads off the engine to do an autopsy.  If you are very lucky the valves are stuck open.  If the pistons don't move when turning the engine then it is time to look for a replacement engine.

[rwlvt 1]

O.K. Last question (I think).  I've looked again at the suggestion last made to check the valves.  Unfortunately, it looks like I would need to pull the engine to do that.  If this were my tractor and time was not an issue, I would do that just for the experience.  But this is more of a project than I am up for.

 

So, my question for you folks is: What would be a good price to sell the tractor and mower deck as is?  I'm pretty sure this is a 60 inch mower deck.  (See photos in my first post.)  The tractor serial number indicates it's a 97 Toro.  (S/N: A973636148)  The tractor was working this spring, but stopped suddenly.  I can turn the engine over, but who knows what is going on inside.  

 

This is a situation where my friend's husband recently passed.  He truly was a "Mr. Fixit" and actually has a collection of Wheelhorse tractors and accessories.  There is also a GT1100 tractor.  I don't think that tractor runs either, but it is intact with a 36 inch mower deck.  His wife would like to move the equipment quickly, so we'll want to price to sell.

 

We're located in Vermont.  Any suggestions would be welcome.  Thanks in advance.

 

Ron

 

P.S. Link to photos:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/uRdbPFper4MzHsti7

 

Edited August 6 by rwlvt

[Handy Don 11,890]

Estimating value is very tough. Location matters -- I have no good sense of the effect on pricing in your area vs. where I am but I’ll add some thoughts. How quickly you need a sale will also have an impact.

 

Late 520-H models like this one are somewhat desirable having good power and nice instrumentation. There were also improvements to steering and chassis over earlier ones. Reasons to avoid them include their more involved electrical systems and their Onan engines. Exposure to the elements without careful maintenance can be quite detrimental to both and this machine’s faded paint & weathered plastic, rusted off muffler pipe, ruined seat, etc. indicate it was likely kept outdoors, though probably covered, for most of its life and has suffered significantly for it. Plus, this one is already not running for unknown reasons so the actual condition of the engine, drive train, electrical system, and hydraulics cannot be determined with certainty.

You don’t mention the hours on the meter, but with the other factors it will matter a lot--is it hard-used and weathered or just weathered?

 

The GT1110 was an economy model when new and is not particularly desired though many of its parts are interchangeable with similar vintage WH models. Again, severely weathered and not running.

 

A 60” mower deck with the front-mounted pulley mule in running condition with no major damage, smooth running spindle bearings, usable blades, and only surface rust is worth upwards of $350 around here--and noticably more if in good to excellent condition. A 36” RD in similar condition, again with mule, is $200 and up,

 

Either deck is more likely to sell separately than with a non-running tractor, except to a buyer looking buy at a very low price, fix up and resell the decks, and treat the tractors as a parts machine.

 

The snowblower looks complete and the pulley sheaves indicate it has been used not too long ago, but it too has suffered badly from exposure and the condition of the drive and auger are not obvious. I’d guess $100 or less around here. Same status as the decks for salability. 

 

Edited August 6 by Handy Don

[lynnmor 7,246]

Pulling the heads is easy on the front, remove hood and the front tin, then the head bolts.  For the rear, remove belt and four engine mounting bolts and the turn the engine to do the same as frost.  

 

Like you, I would send it down the road.

 

It does sound like you are done with it and looking at the photos it ain’t worth much.  I made a decision to never do any serious work on an Onan that was kept outside, just too many rusted bolts and other corrosion.

[rwlvt 1]

Thank you both for your responses and your guidance.  Sound like I am on the right track.

 

And finally, this forum and the people in it have been a very good resource.  I appreciate the help I have received here.

 

Best wishes to you all!

 

Ron

[Handy Don 11,890]

Just as an FYI, as a “roller” (an engineless tractor) it will have reduced value due to uncertainty. However, looking at the 520-H as a parts machine, there is some value so please don’t think of this as ready for scrapping.

The wheels and tires look in reasonable to good condition.

The swept forward front axle (with tie rods, spindles, wheels and tires), plus the reduction steering (the steering column, reduction gears, and lower steering shaft) are desirable if in usable condition since they could be transferred to several other WH models.

Other parts like body panels or gauges might be useful to someone replacing damaged items.

It’ll depend on what the buyer has in mind.

As has been noted here many times--the fair price is one freely agreed between the buyer and seller.

 

Edited August 7 by Handy Don