Help. Onan 216 will not restart. This might be bad.

[jchris 27]

So a week ago I picked up a 1990 416-H with an onan p216 ( I think) motor in it. When I picked it up it was barely running,  sputtering as if it had a fuel issue. 

 

Fast forward to today. Did an entire fuel system service,  including carb clean. Fresh 90 octane non ethanol fuel. New spark plugs. Started up, ran rough for 20 minutes or so than began to purr. Mowed my yard for over 2 hours. Oil level checked before running, was fresh and full, no smell of fuel on it. Engine has 850 hours on the clock. Did notice a small amount of black smoke upon startup that ceased when running. 

 

Then it shut down. No loud bangs, just began to sputter and quit. For around 2 seconds a lazy flame 2 inches tall came from the muffler. 

 

I let it cool and Tried to restart it. Starter engages but will not turn the engine over. I fear something major mechanical happened. Don't know,  new to the wheelhorse life.

 

Any ideas would be appreciated. 

 

Recharged the battery.  Engine seems locked up. If so, is there a way to bar it over and how?

Edited June 16 by jchris
Additional information

[lynnmor 7,305]

Remove the spark plugs and turn the engine by grabbing the pulley behind the PTO.  Try it both ways, counterclockwise is the normal direction.  

[jchris 27]

2 hours ago, lynnmor said:

Remove the spark plugs and turn the engine by grabbing the pulley behind the PTO.  Try it both ways, counterclockwise is the normal direction.  

Is that counterclockwise from the pto side?

[Handy Don 12,210]

16 minutes ago, jchris said:

Is that counterclockwise from the pto side?

The normal rotation is CCW when looking at the engine from the PTO end.

[jchris 27]

Alright. No time tonight. Will do this week. I also may suspect a starter or a hung up bendex. Will try the PTO bar over first,  followed by a starter bench test. 

[Bill D 1,916]

Take the plastic flywheel screen off.  Then remove two of the 3/8" bolts holding the metal screen to the flywheel.  Remove the ones diagonally opposite from one another.  Temporary replace them with longer bolts.  Then take a pry bar stick it between the bolts and see if you can turn the engine over by hand.  Good luck and please let us know how you make out.

[jchris 27]

5 minutes ago, Bill D said:

Take the plastic flywheel screen off.  Then remove two of the 3/8" bolts holding the metal screen to the flywheel.  Remove the ones diagonally opposite from one another.  Temporary replace them with longer bolts.  Then take a pry bar stick it between the bolts and see if you can turn the engine over by hand.  Good luck and please let us know how you make out.

Thanks for the help and will do soon

[RED-Z06 2,221]

Hows the oil level currently?  Did the oil light come on?

 

 

[jchris 27]

3 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

Hows the oil level currently?  Did the oil light come on?

 

 

Oil level was/is OK. Oil light did not come on as the board isn't functional. 

[jchris 27]

Quick update. Was able to remove the cover sufficiently to see the starter and if it's engaging ( time limited).  Seems as if the bendix isn't engaging the ring gear( extending). Still haven't attempted to bar the engine over as stated,  cover is still partially on.There's more to this story and will be removing the entire cover Friday evening to assess if the starter is the symptom ( engine locked up breaking starter)  or the cause ( engine spins freely,  starter broken).

[Bill D 1,916]

Thanks for the update.  Please keep us posted.

[jchris 27]

What will be the final update. Took the side cover of for inspection. Starter was in good condition. Removed spark plugs.  Tried to spin engine by hand, couldn't. Took breaker bar and was easily broken free ( almost no effort literally). Turned key and spun easily. Under the false assumption this was an anomaly,  proceeded to change oil/ filter,  a mistake. Put back together. Attempted restart. Engine completely unbalanced with incredible shake. No compression testor available but a solid belief that it has a major mechanical failure ( broken/lost connecting rod, wrist pin ECT.) Made determination it will be sent down the road as a sacrificial donor for a future owner. 

 

Sad really. Spent a lot of time on it as my first ( and potentially last) wheelhorse I've owned just getting it to run for the brief time it did. Spent 6 weeks looking for one, gave up a ton to get it in time and resources ( full service done on it) and it's done. Hopefully someone can use it as a parts machine post sale.

Edited June 22 by jchris

[RED-Z06 2,221]

Very odd, i can only assume the oil pump failed in some way.  I love my Onans, never had one outright fail on me yet.  Did you look for metal in the oil that was in the old filter?

[jchris 27]

13 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

Very odd, i can only assume the oil pump failed in some way.  I love my Onans, never had one outright fail on me yet.  Did you look for metal in the oil that was in the old filter?

There did seem to be a haze of silver in the old oil, a hint of it, which leads me to my conclusions. It had 890 hours on the clock, which functioned until the end.

[RED-Z06 2,221]

23 minutes ago, jchris said:

There did seem to be a haze of silver in the old oil, a hint of it, which leads me to my conclusions. It had 890 hours on the clock, which functioned until the end.

Thats pretty low hours too.  P series should go 1800-2200 hours.

[jchris 27]

Just now, RED-Z06 said:

Thats pretty low hours too.  P series should go 1800-2200 hours.

With proper maintenance. Signs point to it being well maintained early on, but over time and through sellers many family members homes post the original owners passing it was ignored. 

[Bill D 1,916]

On 6/22/2024 at 4:10 PM, jchris said:

What will be the final update. Took the side cover of for inspection. Starter was in good condition. Removed spark plugs.  Tried to spin engine by hand, couldn't. Took breaker bar and was easily broken free ( almost no effort literally). Turned key and spun easily. Under the false assumption this was an anomaly,  proceeded to change oil/ filter,  a mistake. Put back together. Attempted restart. Engine completely unbalanced with incredible shake. No compression testor available but a solid belief that it has a major mechanical failure ( broken/lost connecting rod, wrist pin ECT.) Made determination it will be sent down the road as a sacrificial donor for a future owner. 

 

Sad really. Spent a lot of time on it as my first ( and potentially last) wheelhorse I've owned just getting it to run for the brief time it did. Spent 6 weeks looking for one, gave up a ton to get it in time and resources ( full service done on it) and it's done. Hopefully someone can use it as a parts machine post sale.

Really sorry to hear this.  Please don't give up on Wheel Horse just yet.  There are engine swap options as well as Kohler powered machines that may be more to your liking.  These are great tractors overall.

[johnnymag3 2,519]

A Kohler is a far better option you know this

[RED-Z06 2,221]

Kohlers break too, Briggs break, tecumseh breaks...you wont get away from failures, new, old, or by brand.  I see too many broken mowers through my shop to ever try and sell anyone on reliability.

 

Onans are smooth, probably one of the smoothest engines made, pretty easy to work on too.  They had their issues...but so did the others.  I can't explain fully how much fun it is when the Kohler governor shaft breaks and you have to bare block the engine to fix it...or balance gears exploding.  You just accept that any engine has potential problems, and you roll with the punches.

[Handy Don 12,210]

1 hour ago, RED-Z06 said:

You just accept that any engine has potential problems

And also accept that doing regular preventive maintenance can help lengthen the intervals between problems! 

[jchris 27]

27 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

And also accept that doing regular preventive maintenance can help lengthen the intervals between problems! 

I wish I had that opportunity. I had owned it for less than a week. No amount of preventative maintenance that I could have done could forestall decades of the lack of it.

[jchris 27]

7 hours ago, Bill D said:

Really sorry to hear this.  Please don't give up on Wheel Horse just yet.  There are engine swap options as well as Kohler powered machines that may be more to your liking.  These are great tractors overall.

I'm certain they are, but would love greater input from those in the know as to what advantages they provide over more current machines. I'm not doubting their effectiveness or capabilities but honestly in hindsight seeing thier capabilities VS more current machines puts me in a conundrum asking myself why? No I'll will intended, honestly,  but parts availability ( EX decks Ect. ) makes me question things. 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

37 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

And also accept that doing regular preventive maintenance can help lengthen the intervals between problems! 

PM can help lengthen an engines life but the sudden hard part failures from bad design cant be helped.  Today i put a new camshaft in the 19.5hp engine in a 4 year old Deere, this is its 3rd camshaft..the compression releases fail...when i drop it off in the morning ill be picking up his neighbors Craftsman for a head gasket...that will be the 4th ill have done this month alone.  Commands had head gasket issues, Kawasaki used plastic cam gears in their Liquid Cooled twins up until mid 98, Kawasaki still suffers from ongoing head problems.  Onans had the plastic flyball spacer, K/M Kohlers had balance gear problems, governor shaft problems, head leaks from warp, tecumseh couldn't build a carburetor worth a crap throughout their existence.

 

Stuff breaks...its just something you are going to come across eventually.  

 

Id venture that OP lost an oil pump and his flywheel side main bearing is seized up on the crank.  Its likely very fixable but, you really have to like something alot to put that much into it.

[Handy Don 12,210]

I am curious about which “more current” machines you would consider comparable to the 416. 

 

Any that I’ve looked at having the flexibility to handle easily-changed implements started near or over $10,000 new with a mower deck (Kubota, Mahindra, Deere, Kioti, etc.) and are physically larger, which affects storage, transport, and maneuverability.

 

Used models from these brands are typically priced higher than WH for comparable age, and condition--often substantially higher.

 

Of course, in raw capabilities, some of these brands’ models offer more at those higher price points: more horsepower, better hydraulics, Cat 2 or 3 hitches, all wheel drive, and power steering. Digging into maintenance costs, though, might well startle you.

[jchris 27]

24 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I am curious about which “more current” machines you would consider comparable to the 416. 

 

Any that I’ve looked at having the flexibility to handle easily-changed implements started near or over $10,000 new with a mower deck (Kubota, Mahindra, Deere, Kioti, etc.) and are physically larger, which affects storage, transport, and maneuverability.

 

Used models from these brands are typically priced higher than WH for comparable age, and condition--often substantially higher.

 

Of course, in raw capabilities, some of these brands’ models offer more at those higher price points: more horsepower, better hydraulics, Cat 2 or 3 hitches, all wheel drive, and power steering. Digging into maintenance costs, though, might well startle you.

This is the valuable feedback that I was asking. True they can be 10k , many much more, but within the wheelhorse era, there are many examples of similar value with potentially greater availability of parts if not based solely on market sales and share. Case, ingersoll ECT. and at similar/ less cost from my observations with simpler engineering yet equivalent value.

Edited June 26 by jchris