C175 Won’t move forward or reverse

[mnelson721 0]

Hello wheel Horse community!

 

I recently inherited a C1 75. The tractor was running great until all the sudden my son shifted into forward really hard. And then it does not move forward anymore. The engine runs very strong trying to find where I may have broke something.
 

The belt is tight. The pulley looks good. The fan on the transmission is running, but the rear axles won’t move anymore.. 

 

I would add a video, but it won’t let me upload it

 

 

 

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,090]

It's possible you sheared a key in one of the rear wheel hubs.

Draw a line with a marker from the center of each axle onto the hub. Try to drive and see if one of the hubs turns on the axle. It takes just one to fail to cause a no-drive condition. It could be the right one because the axle is out past the hub.

I don't think it could be the pulley behind the fan because the fan is turning.

[mnelson721 0]

Thank you for the advice!!!! 
 

I will look at that now drawing a line on the axle. 

 

Maybe a stupid question how do I get the hub off of the axle to see if it’s shared? 

[mnelson721 0]

I tried with the marker on the axle to the wheel hub. Neither of them are turning on both sides.

[JCM 9,323]

to  

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,090]

Did you remount the wheels on the hubs, set them on the ground and drive it?

[pfrederi 17,856]

I am more a Sunstrand guy, only have 1 Eaton.  If you had this problem on a Sunny I would say a transaxle key sheared.    In your case #29

 

Hope some Eton guy stops by soon...

 

 

[D_Mac 8,699]

Set screw on the pulley ?

[8ntruck 7,079]

is there a key in the pulley too?

[kpinnc 12,358]

There is also a key in the control lever on the pump itself. With the engine switched off, and the cam assembly removed- if you actuate that lever you can hear the driving side of the pump's inner race moving. It has an audible click to it. 

 

If the key shears, nothing will move internally. There also won't be a hard stop in the motion of the lever. 

[pfrederi 17,856]

Does the hydro lift work???

[953 nut 55,734]

The lower portion of your drive belt appears to be below the guide, it should be resting on top of the guide to catch the belt slack when the tensioner is up. Could be the belt is in a bind.

When the engine is running and you apply tension to the belt does it load the engine down? As @pfrederi suggested, if your hydraulic lift is not working then the pump isn't working. Tell us the symptoms one by one and we will help you through this.

[Handy Don 12,436]

On 4/14/2024 at 12:02 PM, mnelson721 said:

I would add a video, but it won’t let me upload it

Become a supporter!

[Farmerred 2]

Not sure if I can bump this thread, but I have the same issue.

 

The hydraulic lift works. I drew the lines and the axle isn’t turning at all. The “Belt Guide - Bottom” is broken and should be replaced. But the belt isn’t slipping and seems like the pulley still gets plenty of RPM. I haven’t checked the oil filter yet, but it gets warm and the transmission fluid is measuring fine.

 

Could I get some advice? Happy to answer any questions 

[Handy Don 12,436]

2 hours ago, Farmerred said:

The hydraulic lift works. I drew the lines and the axle isn’t turning at all. The “Belt Guide - Bottom” is broken and should be replaced. But the belt isn’t slipping and seems like the pulley still gets plenty of RPM. I haven’t checked the oil filter yet, but it gets warm and the transmission fluid is measuring fine.

So: fan is turning, pulley behind it is turning at the same speed.

The lift is working. So the charge pump is working.

The motion pump is on the same shaft so it’s turning. 

You do have and have looked at the Eaton manual, right?

You have eyeballed the motion linkage to make sure that when the lever moves it moves the lever on the transaxle, right? Disconnected linkage = no movement.

Have you confirmed @kpinnc suggestion that the lever on the transaxle is moving the shaft it’s on?

 

If yes to the above, with the rear wheels off and the engine at idle and the motion lever either forward or backward, what do you feel when you try to rotate both hubs in the same direction by hand? Do this carefully, the manual rotation MAY cause an internal part to re-engage and the hubs to start moving under engine power--no loose clothing, be prepared to fully let go and get clear instantly. (You’re looking to feel a bit more resistance as the hubs rotate in one direction or the other.) 

Can’t rotate? Something may be jammed in the transaxle.

Rotation but you can feel a difference in one or the other direction? Then I agree with @pfrederi, likely sheared key between the motion motor and the transaxle.

Sudden engine powered motion? Likely a partially stripped gear.

 

Engine off. Can rotate the hubs in opposite directions? Diff pinions are ok inside the bull gear.

 

That’s about all I can think of without disassembly.

Edited July 21 by Handy Don

[squonk 41,291]

I'm thinking key on pump gear sheared. Does it sound like it's loading up trying to move? If that key breaks you will have hydraulic pressure and the lift will work but there will be nothing to drive the differential.

[953 nut 55,734]

3 hours ago, Farmerred said:

The hydraulic lift works. I drew the lines and the axle isn’t turning at all. The “Belt Guide - Bottom” is broken and should be replaced. But the belt isn’t slipping and seems like the pulley still gets plenty of RPM. I haven’t checked the oil filter yet, but it gets warm and the transmission fluid is measuring fine.

Please give us a little history on this problem. What was being done when this problem came up? Was there a sudden loss of operation or was it gradually failing? When you move the motion control  lever while the engine running is there a change of sound or any attempt for the axles to move?

[kpinnc 12,358]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Have you confirmed @kpinnc suggestion that the lever on the transaxle is moving the shaft it’s on?

 

One other thing: if the transmission is in a bind (broken bolt in a gear, etc ..), it will whine considerably. All hydros whine a little, but this would be different. 

 

If no change in the sound when you move the lever, motion control isn't reaching the input shaft. 

[Farmerred 2]

Thanks for the advice. I’m going to go through and I’ll respond with answers hopefully in a little here.

[Farmerred 2]

History: funnily enough I think I have OPs tractor. So sounds like his son shifted the motion control lever too quickly.

 

 

For the axle tests:

-Spin right hub and both spin opposite directions

-Spin left hub and right hub doesn’t spin

-Brake drum spins when left spin 

-Spinning both in same direction during idle there is resistance, but transmission doesn’t engage

 

The motion lever to the cam assembly is good, I rebuilt it per the manual as it was a little backward

 

Very slight noise (maybe whine) when shifting motion lever. I took off the cam assembly to manually test the “arm-speed control”. It is significantly harder to turn when the engine is idling (pulley in motion) than when it is off. When the engine is off, the arm-speed control rotates pretty easily and it sounds like it is making contact with something in the transmission. So I assume that is shifting what it’s supposed to.

 

> You do have and have looked at the Eaton manual, right?

 

I do have the manual and have looked through it a couple times, but still learning about transmissions so it was tough to understand. Looks like I have an 1100 - 032 

 

Does it sound like I need to disassemble the transmission per the manual and ensure there are no sheared keys? Is there any other manual testing I can do? At this point is there no chance it’s something small like a clogged oil filter or anything?

pll_1617.pdf Tractor 1982 C-175 Twin Auto TIPL.pdf

Edited July 22 by Farmerred

[Farmerred 2]

Testing some more and there is definitely a soft whine to the transmission when the control shaft is forward or backward

Edited July 22 by Farmerred

[Handy Don 12,436]

10 hours ago, Farmerred said:

-Spin left hub and right hub doesn’t spin

-Brake drum spins when left spin 

This is the significant information.

From all the other test results and your added explanations, it sounds like the hydro system is likely ok. Whine, resistance, etc.

 

The axles and differential link the left and right hubs at all times. With the engine off, friction in the transaxle gears normally resists letting the outer housing (bull gear) of the differential rotate (this is the resistance you feel when pushing a tractor with the engine off--even a geared tractor in neutral). Internal friction within the differential is normally much less, so turning one hub usually drives the diff’s internal pinions to rotate the other hub in the opposite direction. You are seeing this reaction from right to left but not from left to right.

 

The brake drum is on a shaft that is gear-linked to the differential outer housing (bull gear). So, when the diff housing turns, the brake drum turns. In your situation, something is stopping the right hub from being driven by the left through the differential. Resistance is great enough that turning the left hub is instead turning the diff housing. 

 

Both of these are unusual and indicate at least one problem somewhere in the gearing after the hydro. I strongly suspect that you’ll have to open the transaxle to solve this but other members are sure to chime in!

 

Looking for clues:

Does it fail for only one direction of left hub rotation (i.e. clockwise or counter clockwise)?

Any noise audible within the transaxle?

Same behavior when motion control is in forward, neutral, and reverse (engine off, of course).

Is the effort needed to spin left hub more than to spin the right? Is one direction easier? How about for the right hub?

 

 

 

[Farmerred 2]

Thanks for continuing to offer advice and questions. Here’s some answers below and a couple questions of my own:
 

>Does it fail for only one direction of left hub rotation (i.e. clockwise or counter clockwise)?

 

Rotating left hub cw or ccw both fail to rotate the right hub.

 

>Any noise audible within the transaxle?

 

Not really, kind of sounds like something is making contact when changing the direction of either hub. Nothing that seems like it rattles or grinds or anything really.

 

>Same behavior when motion control is in forward, neutral, and reverse (engine off, of course).

 

Yeah same behavior regardless of motion control orientation

 

>Is the effort needed to spin left hub more than to spin the right? Is one direction easier? How about for the right hub?

 

Rotating left hub is much easier than the right and both hubs take about the same effort in either direction.

 

 

Okay, so sounds like I need to dissassemble the transaxle.. When I remove the transaxle at some point, should I be able to spin the transmission pulley and see the output shaft rotate? Or will the whole system have to be drained of oil so I won’t be able to know if there is any transmission issue (thought seems like it’s most likely not a problem)?

 

Also, any tips for disassembling the transaxle?

      

Edited July 23 by Farmerred

[mrc 840]

clean tranny real good before disassembly.  your work area needs to be VERY clean as you disassemble.  small amounts of dirt/debris can cause havoc.

[953 nut 55,734]

9 hours ago, Farmerred said:

Rotating left hub is much easier than the right and both hubs take about the same effort in either direction.

 

 

Okay, so sounds like I need to dissassemble the transaxle.. When I remove the transaxle at some point, should I be able to spin the transmission pulley and see the output shaft rotate? Or will the whole system have to be drained of oil so I won’t be able to know if there is any transmission issue (thought seems like it’s most likely not a problem)?

Sounds to me like a broken axle shaft or differential. The transmission input pulley drives a pump and there is no mechanical connection to the axles or brake shaft.

If you have an engine stand (or can borrow one) that will make your job a lot easier. This will allow you to position the transaxle where it is easier to work on.

The thread below by @19richie66 will give you some good pointers. You won't be widening your transaxle but the process of opening and working on an Eaton 1100 is well documented.